Episode 32 Best Practices for using Tarot Cards in Counseling Sessions, with Paula Spare

[CHRIS McDONALD]:

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Welcome to the Holistic Counseling Podcast, where you discover diverse wellness modalities, advice on growing your integrative practice, and grow confidence in being your unique self. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so glad you're here for the journey.

Welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. If you are a new listener to the podcast, I want to say welcome. As a listener, you have access to my free nine-part email course called Becoming a Holistic Counselor. In this course, you'll explore different holistic strategies, how to develop your skills as a holistic counselor, and how to attract your ideal holistic clients. Go to www.holisticcounselingpodcast.com, scroll down into your name and email address today.

Moving on to today's episode, I am so excited for today's guest. I've been waiting for this episode to record and looking forward to this interview since I booked it. This is a topic I've received the most questions from listeners about, and I'm happy that we'll have some answers today. Today's guest is Paula Spare. She is a former educator and classically trained musician. She left teaching due to illness, which led her to study yoga and Ayurveda for 15 years. During that time, she opened and returned to her love of the metaphysical, which led to the birth of Open Key Tarot. Recently she received her masters in counseling and she's working towards removing the stigma and taboo of holistic modalities and counseling. She is passionate about ethically enhancing traditional theoretical modalities like CBT with archetypal, that's how you say it Paula?

[PAULA SPARE]:

Yes, archetypal.

[CHRIS]:

Archetypal tarot. Okay, big words for me today. Welcome to the podcast, Paula.

[PAULA]:

Thank you, Chris.

[CHRIS]:

I'm so glad. So glad you could be here with us today. Using tarot in counseling has been one of the biggest questions I've received from listeners so far.

[PAULA]:

That's really exciting because, yes ---

[CHRIS]:

Isn't it? I know for sure. Can you tell my listeners more about yourself and your work?

[PAULA]:

Absolutely. And thanks for having me here. I just want to say I'm excited to be here because when you're saying that you get a lot of questions about that, I'm actually was surprised to hear that because there's just a lot of taboo about tarot. So a little bit about me, I was an educator for a long time, and then I took time off due to some health issues and that kind of led me into the journey with exploring tarot, which I always had a lot of intuitive skills. I guess you would call it psychic ability. I've had it since I was a kid, which my parents steered me away from because of religious upbringing, but it just came very natural to me. So during that time, when I got into the yoga and the Ayurveda, I just gravitated back to cards because I felt like so much of the empathic energy that I felt I could just kind of focus on the cards and not feel so much in my body if that makes sense.

I had already received a master's degree in liberal studies with a focus on mythology and archetypes and had written a thesis on that. So it just lined up for me if that makes sense and I basically had just gobbled up everything you could think of on young archetypes, women's mythology, astrology, every culture. I mean, I was like into the Ayurveda. I just went there and I was teaching college level English class and speaking about different archetypes, just in literature with my students. This was also a little bit prior to my leaving education. I guess the journey maybe even started a little bit before the yoga, if that makes sense. So I just got into the tarot cards and I guess one of my yoga students was like, "You know Paula, you need to do this professionally."

I was like, no, and they're like, no, you got this. I took a couple day class with a guy up in Pennsylvania and he was like, you are just natural. He's like, you just know how to do this. So that was just how it all started with Open Key Tarot. So I started doing that and then what I started to see was I was getting a lot of clients who I knew had mental health issues and ethically I felt very uncomfortable working with them and just knew that I could not, in a good conscience work with them. I would look up in the phone book, you know and a lot of the people I have are global. I have clients who are in the UK, I have people who are in Australia and I was like, well, they were on this continent. I was like, well, can we find somebody in your area? Because I was like, I just don't feel right. I don't have the expertise to diagnose you, but this feels intuitively like maybe bipolar or a major trauma. So that was what led me to get a degree in clinical mental health counseling, because I felt like had to merge the two together.

[CHRIS]:

Nice. Well, congratulations on getting that. So let's backtrack for a second, for some listeners who may not know what tarot cards are. Can you kind of share a little bit more of what they are and how they're used?

[PAULA]:

Okay, that's a perfect way to segue. So tarot cards, just the shortest, most easy answer are cards that have symbols and an archetype. So an archetype is just like a prototype, so like a father figure, a mother figure. So in the most basic deck of tarot cards, you have the Royal suit of the king, the queen, the Knight and the princess and they are representative of the internal things that happen within us. And they originated in Europe as playing cars. They really had no connection to the metaphysical or spiritual work old at all. It wasn't until certain metaphysical groups started to use them as a way to devinate. The word divination is just a derivative from the word divine. But basically they started as just playing cards in Royal families and people who had wealth. But today there are just tons of different decks that we can use. They have symbols on them.

[CHRIS]:

Are all the symbols the same on the different decks?

[PAULA]:

That's a tricky question, Chris, because it depends on the deck you buy. They've just ---

[CHRIS]:

That's what I wondered.

[PAULA]:

Yes. So when I teach tarot classes for beginners, I try to let people kind of pick what they want, but like, if they say, well, "Hey Paula, like I got this deck. Is this going to work?" I'm like, "Well, I kind of wanted us to all look at the same thing." So I kind of give them a couple different decks to pick from that are sort of similar because they've just evolved. Especially over the past, I would say 15 years, the end of history has just boomed with tarot decks.

[CHRIS]:

Yes, because I've seen so many out there and that's why I always wondered if there's differences and it sounds like there is.

[PAULA]:

I guess the answer to that question a little more efficiently would be that most decks have suits, almost like a playing card deck. So when you're talking about a tarot deck you've got the cups, that's a suit just like if you have diamonds in a playing card deck, does that make sense?

[CHRIS]:

That's a good way to describe.

[PAULA]:

Yes. And then you've got swords. So like today on my social media account, I posted the ten of swords. But if you looked at that particular card from the light Sears to row, they had birds, they were like crows instead of actual swords. So the symbolism was a little different.

[CHRIS]:

Okay. So how can these help therapists in sessions with clients?

[PAULA]:

That's really the most powerful question. I feel that they definitely help with clients who are stable, who don't have psychosis, who we know that like are really responsive to things like CBT therapy and narrative therapy. So that would be my first answer to that Chris, people who have good grounding, like who already have the grounding tools. And I think that if we're talking to therapists who are like, all right, yes, I've got a couple people like that in my caseload. Does that make sense? The second part of that is you have to be able to tie it to theoretical orientation. And I think I heard you talk about that on one of your podcasts because I was following you. Yes, absolutely because you just about being grounded in theoretical orientation, but the second part is how could they help therapists?

So somebody who's having a hard time with, for example, money and giving away more and, or feeling like they're just completely drained, you could have a deck of cards, say you were doing in person for example, and you could have them take the cards and shuffle the deck and take a look at which one they pull out. And you could say, let's talk about this. And how do you feel about looking at that? What does this card mean? What does it bring up for you? And discuss it. It doesn't have to be a spiritual significance. For example ---

[CHRIS]:

It sounds like you on them too, that what does this bring up in you to really using those counseling skills and connecting with that part?

[PAULA]:

It does. So you're giving that image to the client and you're asking, how are you feeling when you look at this image? Another way that you could use the cards is, and then I've done this with teletherapy, I'll send an image to the client. I'll say do you like me to pick something for you and then say yes, and then I'll send it to them and I'll say, okay, do you want to just write down a couple thoughts about how that makes you feel? And do you want to read that for me? Some clients who like homework between sessions, they'll take that image and write about it and then they'll bring it to the next session.

[CHRIS]:

That sounds so interesting too, and a great way to get them more involved with that.

[PAULA]:

It is. A couple other things to consider is you were asking me about different types of cards. There are ones that look less tarowy and don't look witchy if you will, or mystical. Does that make sense? So you have to know your audience. We all do this as therapists. During intake, we get to know the cultural and religious backgrounds of our clients. If we're sensing that the client is open to doing a little more investigative work and they're a visual person and it aligns with the theoretical orientation, there are decks of cards, and I teach this and my classes that you can choose from that don't really have that super mystical vibe to them. Because I have one client who has very, very strong Christian beliefs, but I've used this modality with him and it's been very helpful. He likes it.

[CHRIS]:

That makes a lot of sense so it's not threatening or, I'm sure there's not things on there that would cause them to be like, what is this? Is this evil? What are you using? Is this fortune telling? Because I know I've heard that too, is that fortune telling tool and a lot of religions I know are against that.

[PAULA]:

And I think that's another piece of the whole taboo with tarot is the fortune telling part.

[CHRIS]:

Yes. That's what I've heard.

[PAULA]:

Yes, and I think this is where I kind of step out on into the light with this because because a piece of the work that I do in Open Key Tarot is I do the intuitive part, which is separate from Paula, the therapist. It just, and I heard you talk about this a little bit in one of your podcasts, Chris. Like you have to be very careful about what you're offer offering people. Like I would and do a tarot reading for a mental health client.

[CHRIS]:

So that's the difference, I guess?

[PAULA]:

That is the difference. And it's an ethical line. So I guess we're, I want to make the distinction in what we're talking about today is the tarot cards in a clinical practice would be something, it would be a tool just like if you have in a box where the client comes into your room and you're like, "Hey, do you want to work with these today?" They are working with them to maybe do some narrative therapy, some CBT. If you're a psychoanalytic person, you want to work with this. It's different than a client contacting you for a reading, two different things.

[CHRIS]:

So can you share, how would a reading go with someone who's not a client?

[PAULA]:

Okay. You're asking if someone came to me for reading? So which is where I started, so people would, you know I have a website or whatever and they see my posts or whatever and they go and they're like, "I feel like I need a reading." A reading with me would be, they just sign up. All they do is just give me their name. I log on via video, and it's kind of funny because I was kind of doing the teletherapy prior to COVID. A lot of it is. Yes, absolutely. I just look at them and I just tap in and I use the cards as a way to kind of, it's like a medium between me and them and sometimes I'll pull one or two cards and I'll just start to talk. I'm talking rather than them talking. And I start to say, this is what I'm getting, this is what I hear, and then it goes like that because they're coming to hear what's being said rather than then coming to me to tell me what's being said from them or what they need to say. So it's just a total reversal, but sometimes people need that. So that's why I keep the two separate because I don't crisscross them because they don't belong.

[CHRIS]:

Yes. So I think that's helpful to have that clarification.

[PAULA]:

Absolutely. But I also think that there's a place for that because it's kind of like sometimes people do need to hear and then other times people they need to talk and that's a distinction where as a counselor, you're not there to tell them anything.

[CHRIS]:

Okay. So that keeps you in your counselor role?

[PAULA]:

Yes. Yes.

[CHRIS]:

Ethically, I would think.

[PAULA]:

Yes. So I thought a lot about this, Chris because I was like, wow, this is a slippery slope with the tarot cards. But I do feel that it has its place to like doing some yoga with a client. Some people need other modalities I think.

[CHRIS]:

Yes, something more. And that's what I feel with a lot of the holistic strategies. It does bring your practice with clients to the next level because it gives them something more than just talk therapy. So you mentioned integrating traditional theoretical modalities, like CB . How does that work if you were going to use tarot with CBT?

[PAULA]:

That's a great question as well. So example, say you have a client who is working really hard to change some thinking about a work situation, about just like I keep messing up and like it never gets any better. And say you have an understanding as a therapist, a little bit about which cards in the tarot deck have implications for being positive about work because there are cards, like the three pinnacles is the work card. It's a collaboration with coworkers card basically. So if you had your client take a look at that, discuss it, you could even have your client look at that and focus on that when they start to feel like I don't get along with my coworkers, when those thoughts start going in that other direction.

That's one way of doing the thought stuff with the CBT and the tarot cards. And there's so many variations of like the 30 pinnacles because pinnacles have to do with money and earth stuff. So again, there's that like, you're not doing a reading for them at all. It's just like, we're going to just talk about this today. Like this is, how do you feel about looking at something that would kind of be a good visual to bring you back? Would this be something that would be helpful? It may not be helpful for them, but it's an idea that you could kind of use as a toolbox or out of the toolbox for the client who's doing the CBT.

[CHRIS]:

Yes. The visual would help as a reminder, especially some people are more visual in their learning styles.

[PAULA]:

If they could screenshot it, they could have a picture of it. Some people do, like they'll just download it on their phone or keep it on their desk. So like say they're having trouble working as coworkers. The three pinnacles is literally a picture of three people working and putting things together. So it's like a very helpful visual of getting along, got to work at this.

[CHRIS]:

Yes. I could see that, how that would be helpful. So I know you mentioned narrative therapy that it can sometimes be useful with that. So I'm not as familiar with that kind of therapy. Can you share how that could work with tarot?

[PAULA]:

So narrative therapy, the way I use narrative therapy, which I think might be a little loser than some other people, because I know a lot of people do it with like family therapy., that was the way I was trained, but the minor Arcana, so let me just give you a little back up a little bit on tarot. The tarot's broken down into major Arcana , which are like the full all the way up to the world card. Okay, anyways, the very last card, which is like, I know my stuff, the judgment card. So the very end and then the minor card are the numbered cards, the minor Arcana. So when we're talking about narrative therapy, I feel like those numbered cards are great for narrative therapy because they show lots of family stuff. They show loss, they show triumph, they show working through things. And there's a lot of story in those minor Arcana cards, whereas the major Arcana are just like the big boom, boom, boom, boom. It's like the heroes journey. Whereas the minor Arcana, I always say that wrong, people correct me, "It's our not Arcana. It's Arcana."

[CHRIS]:

Arcana, is that's just the type of cards.

[PAULA]:

It's the mystery. That's the translation. Arcana means mystery.

[CHRIS]:

Potato, potato.

[PAULA]:

Yes, exactly. No, you're so right with that. Yes, it's like we had to get into an argument about this, but the number card. So that's where I just say, the numbered cards, the two swords or the three swords, all of these, the floor swords, they show the narrative. So I feel like those are the best ones that show like how to like run through and change those narratives. Like here's a really good one, the five of Pentacles. So I'm talking about money and self-worth lack and all those things. In the rider weight, which is a very traditional tarot deck, one that I think everybody just starts with, it shows people being kind of left out in the cold. It shows this feeling of like, I don't have enough. I am not enough. That's a narrative.

[CHRIS]:

It's a narrative for a lot of clients.

[PAULA]:

Yes. Isn't it?

[CHRIS]:

For sure.

[PAULA]:

Yes. I feel like those are the best cards to kind of like really play around with so you could kind of like take those out of the deck and just kind of work with those with your clients if you wanted to do narrative therapy.

[CHRIS]:

Yes, I could see how a lot of clients could resonate with that and really keep them more focused in the session. So how do you introduce tarot? Let's say you have a new client who's never heard of it or doesn't know anything about it. How would you introduce it to them?

[PAULA]:

Oh, that's a great question. I wait to kind of just see, obviously I like to see where they are, what issues that they are coming to counseling for. I don't introduce anything in the first few sessions. If it's something it's just like basically just like an adjustment disorder type of thing, I feel like that might be somebody's a good candidate, but I definitely want to find out enough about their cultural religious background. And then the way I would introduce it is like I ask them like, how do you feel? Like those are the words, tell me how you feel about trying some different therapies. And then I would show them this. I'm like, look, I just wanted to show this to you and I was just going to ask you is this something that you'd be interested in doing? And I demystify it. I tell them, look, they're just cards with pictures. There's no magic on them.

[CHRIS]:

They're no magic spells you're casting.

[PAULA]:

Yes I don't cast spells. It's just card with pictures that were like duplicated and sold through Amazon, but it's okay if you're not comfortable, just so you know, because ---

[CHRIS]:

So you just try to feel them out. It sounds like too, to see where they're at.

[PAULA]:

Another thing that I would mention Chris is besides just the tarot cards, something else that people really, really dig, and it was actually the first thing that I ever bought were angel cards.

[CHRIS]:

Oh yes. I've heard of those.

[PAULA]:

Yes. One of my favorite decks and it's super, oh my gosh, t's so expensive now, because I think that it might be going at a print, but my favorite angel card deck ever was done by somebody named Kimberly Maroni, the angel blessing cards. They're just so beautiful and like that was my gateway into the tarot cards. So people who are very religious feel more comfortable, like if they feel they just need to feel really supported and really loved. It's something that some people like and some people even put them in, I've seen them in waiting rooms.

[CHRIS]:

That's a great idea.

[PAULA]:

Yes. I've seen them in yoga studios too. When you walk in, they're like, oh, do you want to put one down by your mat? Let us know if you want to put hands on adjustments stage. And one other thing that it seems like male clients really like are animal totem cards, where they have pictures of animals. Children like it too. I don't work with kids, but it seems to be a hit, the home run.

[CHRIS]:

For them to connect with.

[PAULA]:

Absolutely, because it's in our environment and then you just, if it's something that you enjoy. There's a lot of symbolism about different animals and like what they mean and how does that animal make you feel? And you'd be surprised what clients start talking about a situation you're like, okay, do you want to work with the animal cards today? So it's a medium. It's what I'm saying. A medium is anything that just helps somebody get to the core of their feelings. It's just, I think any help that it can give you in a session with somebody and it helps them tune in a little better, I'm all about that.

[CHRIS]:

Yes, I hear that. So I know you're releasing a course in the fall called Tarot for Counselors. Can you share more about that?

[PAULA]:

Yes. So I'm basically just beta testing this first round, because I've never taught this before. So I put a link on my Open Key Tarot site to sign up for it. So what are some of the things that I'm going to be covering, and I'm going to launch it for free the first time, because I want feedback on it. I've never taught this to clinicians, so I just want super amount of feedback and hear what people have to say. So I want to go over some basics on tarot. I want to just give some history, foundational stuff, I want to teach, I'm going to teach how to do this teletherapy because so many of us are doing teletherapy. Because I've got the system to go in on how to do that screen to screen, going to go over how to use a couple different theoretical orientations with the cards, going to go over how to pick some cards in terms of like, which ones are good for you?

Do you want to grab angel cards? Do you feel like you'd rather just have the animal totem cards? We're going to cover some systems. Like I have a couple like steps to go over. What's the first thing you should do if you're going to do this with a client, first step, second step? So I feel really passionate about this because I know there are people who want to dip a toe in this and they're nervous and I understand it. It's nerve-wracking. You're like, I don't know. Should I do this? It's a little scary. Yes, I want to test it out.

[CHRIS]:

Because I've never heard of anything like this for counselors. That's why I was so excited to find you and discover that you're creating this course. I mean that's so exciting.

[PAULA]:

Yes. And I'll go with a couple methods because I have another class that I teach, just basically like intro to tarot. People are welcome to take that. I'll probably relaunch that in the fall as well, but just going over, like how to educate. Just some of the questions that you asked me today, how to prepare, all those things that you need to know. Because some people just, they've never even touched cards. They're so afraid of it and giving that information out and making people feel comfortable. So I'm hoping to do like a four-week class, run it through Zoom and again, just, this is a beta test and then get the feedback afterwards and go from there. So yes, got to sign up on my Open Key Tarot site and then I'm going to start promoting it here in the next week. So yes.

[CHRIS]:

Excellent. So we'll put that link in the show notes as well, which is on my website for listeners. So what is a holistic strategy that you use as part of your daily practice?

[PAULA]:

For me, I am a pranayama person. Pranayama is yoga breathing. So I just get up in the morning, I just sit and I do several types of pranayama that I learned from studying Ayurveda. Then after that I do my own tarot practice with journaling because it just helps me clear out anything that I did not mentally process out the day before. And I will just do like a one card draw, is what I call it and I'll teach this in my class that I'm launching. I just ask myself, okay, what do I need to deal with myself today? Or what is it that I feel unclear about? And I just shuffle my deck and I just pull card and I look at it and I'm like, okay, what does this say to me? You know, what am I feeling? I just journal it out. So that's a practice for me. And then if I have time in the morning, I get on my yoga mat. I need that in a big way.

[CHRIS]:

Me too. I hear you. I'm all about morning routine, but I think that's a perfect start to the morning for someone to really look at that and what do I need or what what's coming up for me today and to journal and to have that thought in your brain of like, what is it that I need to work on today?

[PAULA]:

It definitely is Chris. I learned early on that like for me morning is just the best time of day for me. And I know some people are like, no, I'm an evening person, but for me it's definitely morning. That ritual of just doing the breathing, getting myself clear, and if for some reason I just like at night, I can't seem to do something like that it's just definitely a morning ritual.

[CHRIS]:

Okay. So what's a takeaway you could share today that could help listeners that are just starting their holistic journey?

[PAULA]:

I think the first and most important thing is it's okay to have a little bit of skepticism as you're starting, but it's also important to have an open mind and know that the world is changing so much and that these types of modalities like tarot are way more accepted now than they were 20 years ago. And it's okay to just dip a toe and explore.

[CHRIS]:

Perfect. I think that's great. And what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

[PAULA]:

So right now you can find me at openkeytarot.com or the Open Key Tarot Facebook page or Instagram. My other site is not quite done as I said.

[CHRIS]:

The other one's not done, you said.

[PAULA]:

Yes, it's not finished yet.

[CHRIS]:

That's fine. Do you have any recommendations for card decks?

[PAULA]:

Yes.

[CHRIS]:

You can send that to me if you want.

[PAULA]:

Yes, absolutely. I will send some good ones and I will also send to you, there's a new book that's coming out in the fall. I don't own it yet and I'm really excited about the history of tarot and tarot pictures and the tarot symbolism. It looks, it's kind of expensive but I saw it on Amazon based on my own purchases. I was like, wow, this looks amazing. And I think for like any clinician who really wants to learn a little bit more and to make themselves feel comfortable getting into this area of holistic counseling, it might be a great read, but I think it's coming out in the fall.

[CHRIS]:

Great. And we'll get that from you for the show notes too, so that everybody has some of these resources. Thank you so much, Paula, for coming on today and sharing all this background on how to use tarot cards and counseling.

[PAULA]:

It was my pleasure.

[CHRIS]:

This has been great. And like I said, this is new to me. So that's why I was so happy to find that you had this course going on and hopefully listeners can connect with that as well through the show notes. And I want to thank my listeners for continuing to support the show. Did you like today's episode please? Please subscribe, rate and review so you don't miss the next one. And again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Till next time, take care.

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