Episode 20 The Inward Facing Journey with Joe Gilbert

[CHRIS McDONALD]

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Welcome to the Holistic Counseling Podcast, where you discover diverse wellness modalities, advice on growing your integrative practice, and grow confidence in being your unique self. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so glad you're here for the journey.

Welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I am so honored to bring today's guest to you. Joe Gilbert is someone who helped me move my own personal meditation practice forward when I joined his meditation group many years ago. I am forever grateful for his help and guidance. He is a clinical mental health counselor and meditation teacher. His primary office is at the Cedar Walk Wellness Center in Hillsborough, North Carolina. He discovered Tara Brach in 2009, started attending retreats with her and other teachers, and eventually completed a two year teacher training program taught by Tara Brach and Jack Cornfield. He lives with his wife in Hillsborough, enjoys hiking, backpacking, listening to the birds and cuddling with his animal companions. Welcome to the podcast, Joe.

[JOE GILBERT]

Hi Chris. It's a pleasure to be here.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So can you tell my listeners a little more about yourself and your work?

[JOE]

Sure. So let's see, I became a counselor in 2004. I went to school at Penn State for rehabilitation counseling in particular, where I was trained in person centered counseling, which is based on the work of Carl Rogers. I worked for a treatment center in Alcohols and Treatment Center for two to four years, I guess, before starting to work with some outpatient clinics and agencies. And I developed my own private practice in 2014 and that was in Raleigh and my wife and I moved to Hillsborough not too long ago. And I'm very grateful and fortunate to have found a space at the Cedar Walk Wellness Center where I do individual counseling for adults. And I'm hoping once the pandemic is mostly behind us to do some more introduction to mindfulness meditation classes, as well as some self-inquiry groups for those who are just more contemplative in nature.

[CHRIS]

Excellent. And I know you're very much contemplative in nature.

[JOE]

It seems that way. Not by choice. Maybe we'll get into that a little bit.

[CHRIS]

Yes. Well, I feel, as I was looking at your website and I was like, there's a real feeling of calm and just focus and reflection. I don't know if that's, you did some meditation before creating your website, but it just, that's the energy I got off of it.

[JOE]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's constantly changing. I try to keep the website fresh and organic. It seems like anytime I have a good insight, life will slap me in the face the next day and I need to reevaluate everything. So I just try to update it based on the quality of perception I have at any given time.

[CHRIS]

Oh, that makes sense. I really love that. It comes through too, very genuine and real. I could see that for our clients as well.

[JOE]

Thank you.

[CHRIS]

I want to hear more about your training to be a certified mindfulness meditation teacher with Tara Brach. Can you tell us about that?

[JOE]

Sure. Prior to 2009, I had been searching through various spiritual traditions, looking for happiness, looking for an anchor, looking for something to help me just with my own personal suffering and a lot of existential grappling, if you will. And then I was working at Triangle Pastoral Counseling and Kelly Walker Jones, I think recommended Tara Brach and her book Radical Acceptance. And that was what really resonated with me, my mind and my heart at the time and I just dove in, which was great because prior to that, I've been digging a lot of small holes in different traditions, which can get confusing at times for people I think. And before you know it, I was doing some retreats with Tara and she really helped me to keep it simple in a way just by talking about the two wings of mindfulness practice. So there's the awareness wing, and we're just saying to ourselves, what am I noticing and then the compassion piece, which is the question, can I be with this, whatever is here right now? So keeping it that simple as a way to help me just bring into culture, concentration, what's right in front of me and to notice any resistance that I have to what is right in front of me and then to work with those resistances, seeing those as skillful means or tools along the way.

[CHRIS]

I love the simplicity, but depth of that too, as my awareness, and then looking at if there is a resistance, can I accept where I am? That's powerful.

[JOE]

Yes. If we look at, in Buddhist teachings, for instance, we look at the classical hindrances and I like the way they're framed typically, if you go on a meditation retreat, they'll talk about in the first couple of days as these energies that you can expect to show up in a sense. And there's a nice reminder that if you see these, there's a good indication that you're onto something. So you might notice desire, craving, grasping, or you might, the opposite of that, which would be a version of hatred or anger, ill-will experiences of restlessness, agitation, anxiety, depression, what they call [inaudible 00:05:23], just mental or physical sluggishness. And then the big one is self-doubt, which is the hardest to see often, but the most insidious, if you will, when it comes to our practice and our walk in daily life with others.

[CHRIS]

Oh, that's great. I was looking at your, you offer meditation services separate from individual therapy. So is there a reason you do that?

[JOE]

I just really found that I enjoyed it. There's something very simple about that in the sense that most of the practice takes place outside of my office. So I'll sit with somebody and really we just dive right in and say, "How's your practice? What are you working on?" And people will share with me of what's showing up for them and in a way that takes the course of how this all unfolds. So based on what their experiences, we can say, "Okay, well let's keep going in this direction or let's try something different." And then I really enjoy practicing with people too. So those who are willing to come and sit and be still, just notice mindfulness in front of them and explore a bit. There's a level of intimacy in there that I think is healing in itself.

[CHRIS]

Yes, mind and soul.

[JOE]

It's something that, there's only a handful of people I work with in that manner, but something that I really enjoy and I love to do more of it. And the groups I really enjoyed too and I really missed doing groups last year.

[CHRIS]

You are doing some of the in-person meditation groups?

[JOE]

I was, yes, and it was mostly an introduction to mindfulness meditation groups that I was doing, but I learned so much from the students. And there's just such a built-in quality of support and tenderness for one another that evolves over the course of the eight weeks typically.

[CHRIS]

And I noticed too, that you said donation-based service. Was this part of the training that they said that this was best? Or is this something that comes from you and your calling?

[JOE]

That's what feels right for me. We've spent a lot of time talking about paying attention to our position as a teacher and the traps of money and a lot of power of abusing sexuality, for instance, and also about finding a place where you're comfortable charging for meditation services, which I guess in a lot of traditional ways of looking at that might be considered a no-no. So for me, it's something that, again, spills out. I mean, it's something that is with me 24/7. So it seemed weird for me to charge, something that is so natural and in a way I'm meeting people where I don't have anything to offer them. I'm just trying to point to something that's already within them and helping them to see for themselves in a way it doesn't feel, it's just bizarre for me to charge them for something that they already have

[CHRIS]

For something they already have inside them. That's great. I love it. And on your website, I just want to read what you wrote, you said, "If you find yourself here, perhaps you are ready for what I call the inward facing journey. This typically occurs when we become exhausted with a search for happiness outside ourselves," which kind of goes in with what you just said. Can you share a little bit more about that inward facing journey?

[JOE]

Sure, sure. And I guess that's, I was thinking about why would somebody want to meditate? Why somebody wants to do what I call the inward facing journey. For a lot of people, a lot of your listeners, this may not resonate and that's totally okay. I remember going on a retreat with Tara and her husband, Jonathan Foust, and at the end of the retreat, he said, now a lot of you have had some really significant insights of the course of this week. And there's a lot of excitement and energy that you want to bring back into the world. He says, now be mindful when you go back into the world that most people have not been on a seven day meditation retreat. When you start sharing, pay attention to the moment where their eyes glaze over, and that's where you want to stop talking about it.

So this conversation we're having may resonate with certain people, but for a lot of people, it may not. So for me, the inward journey was not something I chose necessarily, but it was almost out of necessity because I had tried everything else. I was really suffering. I had my own experiences of depression, anxiety, abusing substances. And it's almost like the Christian story of the prodigal son, running away from myself and looking for happiness, goodies, experiences, something to lock down outside of myself, that would, I don't know what I was looking for. Just not this. There was something about this that was not okay. And I think that's a challenge for a lot of people, is we hear people say, "I want to be more present. I want to be in the present moment." And the reality is you're never out of the present moment.

It's just for a lot of us, a lot of the time we don't like it. So we think there's something wrong and I need to go out of my to try to find something to fix it. And that pursuit itself, especially in the spiritual path can be Laden with traps for our ego too. The ego loves to grab it's full for a spiritual cloak and mala beads. So in a way it was hitting a wall. It was a surrender for me. There was a specific moment. One night in November, many years ago where I knew I surrendered and I saw something very clear. I knew I could not keep living my life the way that I was living it. And then it became just a, I always had existential questions even as a kid. I remember asking my parents about death and a lot of times from others, I would get the response, "Just don't think about it. No big deal." And as you know, "just don't think about it doesn't work." So there was this continual pool for me to question everything. And again, that's what the immigration journey is and what meditation is to me. It's self inquiry. It's continuing to ask what's true here in a way of finding out what's true by stripping away with what's false or what's an illusion. Does that make sense?

[CHRIS]

That makes sense. Yes. I'm just thinking about what you're saying. And how has meditation changed your life?

[JOE]

A lot of people who've known me for a while say that I'm a lot more boring, which is fine by me because I'm a lot more peaceful. Really things are simple. Meditation started off as a tool. Again, it was another practice to get me somewhere, but eventually that got in the way too. You know, I was using meditation to achieve some state of consciousness to try to feel better. I would meditate in order to feel better, which is very similar to saying, I want to get this car so that I will feel better. So it can be just as sneaky in that way. It can, our ego can really take us for a ride in the spiritual path so we have to be pretty vigilant knowing that. At some point I had to learn a different way. I landed on what's commonly known as a direct path and may have heard of teachers like Aug Shauntay or Rupert Spire, [inaudible 00:11:50].

These teachers start from the position of awareness, which in a way, the progressive path, like I was aligned with the persona I worked with, with Tara Brach and Jack Cornfield is a gradual progression towards becoming more and more aware. The direct path starts from awareness in a sense. It's assumes, and I would say, it's already the case that you are aware. And then we can take that stance and learn to see the world ourselves and other people in a different way. So it's letting go of the active dealing in meditation and simply being in your natural state, which is meditation really.

[CHRIS]

So how is your natural state meditation?

[JOE]

Hmm, it's quite simple. It's have, you heard of the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 relaxation technique that we use in therapy?

[CHRIS]

Yes. Can you just review that real quick?

[JOE]

Sure. So basically we take a pause, maybe a few deep breaths, and then we say, okay, what are five things that I can see around me? I might just let my attention slowly move around the room and I might name all spider plants. There's a tufted, Titmouse outside my window right now. And name a few more things and then I might say, "Okay, what are four things that I can touch?" And I might just even rub my thumb and my forefinger together and notice the texture and the quality of that sensation, and then grab my jeans. And then three things that I can hear. I can bring my awareness to the white washing machine outside of my room right now. So a lawn mower or something outside of my neighborhood. And then two things that I can smell. And then what do I taste? What's one thing that I taste right now?

And in a way just doing that exercise alone can bring some relief if you do it patiently from two to five minutes. And it just helps you to reorient a little bit. But what I like about it is it reminds you that these things are always and already happening. You don't have to do anything to see. You don't have to do anything to hear or to have your tactile senses or your sense of smell or taste. These things are always already happening naturally. And you're not doing any of that, but we have this part of us, this mental process. We identify with thoughts that claim it. I am doing these things and therefore I am in control of my thoughts and I am in control of my behaviors and we become addicted to this sense of self because I, and we blindly plumb that. And most of us have a sense of insecurity. There's something wrong with this sense of self, I need to go off onto the self-improvement hamster wheel to get somewhere that is different than that.

So the natural state is just going backwards. It's the moment when the prodigal son turns around to come home. You might hear somebody say, "Stop, go back." You really just rest as best as you can. And in a way, when we try to do that, we realize the harder it is for us to rest. Most of us are trained to be distracted. We are just moving at a speed that for me, at least was unsustainable. So I really had no choice, but to learn how to slow down. And fortunately, I have a lot of great teachers along the way to help me do just that.

[CHRIS]

How do you help clients or anyone you work with meditation if they say that they can't still their mind, or it's hard for them to really get into a meditative state? How do you help them?

[JOE]

Sure. I normalized that. I mean, everybody, I think that I've worked with who starts to meditate experiences, profound self-doubt initially, because a lot of people have ideas about meditation being the absence of thoughts. And we have these images from spiritual magazine, so somebody on a mountain top wearing white linen and mala beads with a smile. I think I list on my website a more accurate depiction of that might be somebody at a detox center throwing up into a toilet. Meditation, especially initially is not fun for a lot of people. It's challenging. So I try to normalize that right away. Like it's, you're going to be met with resistance and you're going to notice how insane our mental process is and how agitated our body is, how challenging it is to slow that down. And there are so many different ways to meditate, to practice mindfulness with people.

I really invite people to find what's going to work for them. Some people may need more movement, so yoga or Tai Chi, walking meditation. A lot of times it can be counterintuitive to just force yourself to sit still. If you have a mood disorder, for instance, and you're having hypomanic episodes, forcing yourself to sit still is going to be a lot more challenging. So just working with each individual with their direct experience and going from there, but also trying to replay the idea that you're going anywhere. I think that's why it's so important to say, "Well, what's my intention here? Am I meditating because I want to get away from something?" Because ultimately meditation is learning to say, yes. It's going to say this is it. Can I connect to something? And that doesn't mean that we don't take action. In a sense it reduces our reactivity, our addiction to ourself and allows us to actually be more responsible in ways that only meditation can show you. I can't show you that just by speaking about it.

[CHRIS]

True. Yes, absolutely. And the benefits are just astounding. I know since I, and you helped me a lot to get more into that consistent practice. I meditate almost every day. I can't say every day, because there are some days when I work out and I don't have time, but most days I meditate, but I tell you, it really has changed my brain. So I don't have that reactivity to stress, automatic rash. I think that's a big one.

[JOE]

Yes, and just that that's sacred pause, even a half a second.

[CHRIS]

Secret pause, yes.

[JOE]

Yes. [inaudible 00:17:54] well, he says once we start to bring awareness into our lives, and most of us have been driving a car going 120 miles per hour with our foot on the accelerator and once you start to practice mindfulness or meditation, it's like, you start to notice your habit patterns. It's like taking your foot off the accelerator. But it doesn't mean that the car stops right away. It's still going pretty fast, but now you have a different quality of awareness that you can bring to these habit patterns gradually with curiosity, hopefully with less judgment, less shame. They begin to fall away on their own.

[CHRIS]

That's what I love with mindfulness meditation, because that's mostly what I teach and what I use myself, just noticing in that present moment and what's going on within you and what's going on in the room. Just for me, it's easier now to connect that I've done it so often. I think that's the thing too, to tell clients that it's a practice. That's why they call it, meditation. practice It takes some time to get used to it.

[JOE]

It's funny. You've heard that metaphor of training the puppy in meditation, when the window --

[CHRIS]

No I haven't.

[JOE]

When you're training yourself to sit still with thoughts, the mind is going to run away like a puppy. You tell the puppy to sit, it's going to run away. You don't whip the puppy or beat it. It's about positive reinforcement. So you just say, "Oh, okay, sweetheart, you ran off again, come on back." And then you're invite it to sit back on your lap and then it runs off again and you gently keep on bringing it back and holding it. So I think there's an important piece. And once we notice we've been lost in thought, that's a magical moment of mindfulness, but that's also where most of us whip ourselves and say, "Oh, I'm doing something wrong. Why did I get lost in thought?" But that's the opportunity really to say, "Oh, suddenly I'm awake again"."

And it's so critical to take that moment to relax your whole nervous system, take a deep breath, stretch a little bit, and gradually come back to whatever your anchor is, just focusing on your breath or sounds and sensations in your hand. And I've been using that metaphor for years. It's interesting because my wife and I just adopted a puppy now too, and I've never had a puppy. We've always adopted older dogs. So I'm having to use all of these teachings. I'm having to use my meditation training to teach myself how to train this puppy. So I'm grateful for that.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And that's what I love with mindfulness meditation. It's without judgment to bring your mind back when it wanders. And I love that you said opportunity. I've not heard of it that way.

[JOE]

Yes. The mental process is just, it's not, the mind is not a thing. Like we've never found something called the mind. It really is just restlessness. So if we can understand that back and hopefully soften the urge t control it, to beat it into submission and just let it do its thing, then over time, it recedes into the background, at least the psychological mind, that part of our mind, that is what I like to call the color commentator. It's constantly chirping out saying, we should do this. We should do that. We must do this. You need to be better, yada. Now I can gradually with meditation, just take a back seat so it stops driving the bus. And I've been using that metaphor a lot too with people, the sports metaphor where we have a play by play commentator for most sports events.

This is the person who's saying so-and-so passed the ball, the team shot, they scored. They're just saying, this is what's happening. And then you have the color commentator who comes in and says, yes, but I really wish he would have passed it over here. And that would have made more sense and adding all this extra speculation as well. And that's the voice that most of us have, but we are addicted to. So meditation can gradually help us see this thing, this experience is not who I am and yet I have been believing it for how many decades, whatever. So it's not like you cut the cord and it just goes away. You see it, it's like you can fire this employee, but they keep showing back to work the next day.

[CHRIS]

Wow.

[JOE]

Thank you for sharing.

[CHRIS]

Thank you for sharing.

[CHRIS]

Is there any other benefits to meditation that you've found yourself personally?

[JOE]

Absolutely. I think I sleep better, that's for sure. Just non-reactive in general, a lot more at peace with myself and therefore with others, blame, judgments, opinions. While these things have fallen away or shifted a real simplicity to life, that's the card to put into words. It's too simple in a way that you can't put it into words. Words are great pointers, but they often miss the mark.

[CHRIS]

That's true.

[JOE]

So my compassion for others has grown exponentially. And it's not the compassion we read about. It's just simple understanding of our interdependence. You know, I see myself in everybody I meet. If we really start to look at what meditation can show us and we're starting, neuroscience is starting to catch up with it. If we really understand that everything is made of the same stuff and there's not two things ---

[CHRIS]

Interconnectedness.

[JOE]

Hmm. It's what they call a divine hypnosis in certain traditions. We get, I like to think of the metaphor of a carpet. I don't have multifaceted kind of colorful carpet, which is, what they call consciousness, Christ, consciousness, Buddha nature, or whatever you want to call it. It is the freshness, the fabric of life. But it expresses itself in this multiplicity of and diversity of colors and contours, which is what makes life really fun. It allows us to go out into relationships and experiences, but we can also get caught in addictive behaviors too, and my strand is better than your strand and oh, this carpet is not as good as that carpet, failing to see the underlying reality of all of it. So meditation can help us to not only understand that, but feel it too.

When we can feel the interconnectedness of all things, how can it not affect the nature of our relationships, and the nature of our relationship to the natural world too? I talk with people who are really sincere practitioners. I tell them this is an invitation to find a happiness that is not dependent on any object, any person or any experience outside of yourself, because fundamentally we know that any of those things are temporary. They're impermanent ---

[CHRIS]

Yes, that inward facing journey.

[JOE]

Yes. So with all the, with everything being like sand in our hands, what remains. So these are more of the contemplatives kind of questions that we ask ourselves before a meditation session.

[CHRIS]

Absolutely. I hear a bird.

[JOE]

Yup. Let's see what kind of bird this is. Beautiful. I have a little [inaudible 00:24:23] attached to my window and it's just perfect.

[CHRIS]

Oh nice. And that's very mindful too [crosstalk]. It's okay. We are living in the present moment, Joe. I love all the research too about meditation and how it actually does change the brain. That's just so astounding. I think it's Daniel Siegel, perhaps, he says we use our mind to change the brain to change the mind, really the skillful way of putting everything.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And there's an intersection too with yoga and meditation because I do both and I do yoga every day, but sometimes doing yoga too can set you up for meditation as well.

[JOE]

Absolutely.

[CHRIS]

That's what I love.

[JOE]

Would you be comfortable sharing a bit about that with me, about your experience with all that kind of helped you?

[CHRIS]

Oh, absolutely. So I used to do, since I got used to doing the daily meditation, I would do meditation and then yoga. And then as I did the yoga certification program and learned that no, the asanas are what can help you to make your mind and body ready for meditation? And the way my teacher taught it too, was that we would do asanas and then do a savasana and then meditation, which was new for me because I've never had a yoga teacher do that before. So you're actually in a better state of mind too, after savasana, that you're ready for the meditation. So there are certain postures that really can help and certain variations of yoga. So yes, it's just very interesting how everything is intertwined like that can make you more, I guess, more focused maybe for the meditation piece then.

[JOE]

Absolutely. Well, that's great. That's such a wealth of different tools and traditions and with them teachers out there to see what resonates with us and find and craft our own path.

[CHRIS]

Yes. Because that's one of the limbs of yoga too, is meditation. So the interconnectedness side of that. Also from your website, I wanted to bring up before I forget, so this was something I read too, that you said about several years ago, after facing many years of spiritual seeking, you experienced a letting of who I thought I was. There was a profound shift in perspective. That unfolding process continues to this day. So can you share a little bit of what brought you to that place of that profound shift?

[JOE]

Yes, I'll try.

[CHRIS]

I know you said it was hard to put into words.

[JOE]

Yes. You know, if you really dive into some of the Buddhist teachings and the contemplative teachings, it really is an invitation to let go of everything. And we hear that all the time. We don't like identify letting go with objects with others, with experiences, but letting go of the body too, the mind of who we think we are. And when I can talk about, I identity as a counselor, for instance, but also know that that is tenuous. At any given time, something could happen where we are no longer in the role of counselor. So we understand that doesn't define who we are. So this is taking that further and saying, "Okay, well, am I this body? And if so, what part of this body is me? And the brain is three pounds of floating, like matter in case then a skull and fingernails am I, what am I?" So we really start to peel that away. It's a challenging process and ultimately it leads you to the understanding that what you are is not limited to the mind and the body, but it's basically, it's hard because we perceive things.

I'm in here in case in this skin suit and the rest of the world is out there. And meditation, ultimately, we can dissolve that boundary in a way so that we, one person says we just travel lighter and we don't take ourselves so seriously. And when I'm not taking myself so seriously, I don't have much to defend. I don't get so defensive. I don't become addicted, looking for something that is going to somehow save me. As Alan Watts used to say to his audiences that you all are here looking at me and you have the same question. You want to know if we're going to make it. You'd say the answer of course is no, but we're all looking for something that's going to say, we're going to be okay as a body, as a mind. So eventually I had to get to the point where I saw for myself, I'm holding onto something that is [inaudible 00:29:01].

So that was what propelled me into this deeper search, deeper inquiry and the metaphor, I use a lot of metaphors and stories that I like and talking about the shift with others is that imagine that you and I are characters in a movie and we are having our adventures through life in this movie, on this movie screen. And at some point somebody says, pay attention to the screen, pay attention to the screen in which, by which the movie is playing on. So that's the shift I try to talk about. All my life I thought I was this character on this movie going somewhere and suddenly there was the in perspective where I could see what we are is the screen itself, but it also has space. It also is this kind of timeless field, if you will, that holds everything, everyone. And then we can learn gradually to go back and forth. We can be the characters in the movie. We can have our experiences, we can enjoy life, but we can also read that screen that is open, transparent, luminous to the eyes and ---

[CHRIS]

That's so deep Joe.

[JOE]

It is. And at the same time simple now. But that doesn't mean that this character I call Joe doesn't get irritated. I still have ---

[CHRIS]

With life stuff.

[JOE]

Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So unfortunately that still happens, but there's not a sense of some awful person doing it. A much easier, I have a much easier job about forgiving myself and it makes it easier to shift into, "Okay, can I make some amends here, clean up my side of the street? How do I learn from this?"

[CHRIS]

How do I learn from this? That's good.

[JOE]

Yes. I'm not walling so much and reinforcing this idea of not being good enough or there's something wrong with me.

[CHRIS]

Oh, that's great. And I know we talk about spirituality with clients as well, and there's always that fine line with mental health therapists, like how much can I say without pushing my own values and spiritual beliefs onto them. So how do you use spirituality with clients and sessions to make sure you're not crossing over that ethical line?

[JOE]

Sure. Well, I have, on my intake form, there's a question about spirituality if people want to share that. And then I might broach it in the intake to see if it's something that is support for them, if they have a personal history with it that they'd like to share or make part of the counseling process. Ultimately, I don't really even talk about it unless it's brought up in a session. I rarely even use the word spirituality in my sessions with people.

[CHRIS]

So you just leave it up to them?

[JOE]

Hmm. I mean, ultimately from where I am, everything is spiritual in a sense, and I don't have any kind of spiritual or religious beliefs anymore these days. So in a way that makes it easy to not project beliefs onto others,

[CHRIS]

That's true. And just being open to what they bring to the table.

[JOE]

And again, keep coming back to that simplicity of this is, it's just this what's right in front of us. And then we have our color commentary that describes this. But if we were to, you know, I love to ask people to imagine that they're an [inaudible 00:32:19] and they have no concept of language, time, space. What can you say about my existence? It's just experience. It's just sensations and perceptions. And then we have these minds that are great tools, but ultimately they create a kind of an illusory quality to life. We end up living in this virtual reality, the stories that our mind is creating.

[CHRIS]

Now you gave a lot to think about today. Definitely deeper thoughts today, on a Monday. So Joe, what's a takeaway you could share today that could help listeners who may be just starting their holistic journey.

[JOE]

Hmm. This is a hard one. And it's one that a teacher, she shared with me several years ago and it took me a while to really understand what she was pointing to. So I'm not going to try to explain it to your listeners, but do your best and know that you can't mess up. Spend time five minutes a day, just trying to be in your natural state and it's going to be different and more challenging for us, depending on our makeup, the extent of our personal trauma and substance abuse and things like that. So to try to be gentle, don't compare yourself to anybody. Do your best and know that whatever shows up is your path. If it's just a storm, a torrent of awful thoughts and challenging feelings, that's the path. That's what's showing up for you.

[CHRIS]

That's the path.

[JOE]

Yes. So it's not getting rid of things. It's trying to say, "Okay, here you go. Here we are. What do I do with this? How do I ----

[CHRIS]

Kind of sounds like some of that self-acceptance and acceptance of what is.

[JOE]

Absolutely.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

[JOE]

Probably my website. gilbertmeditation.com.

[CHRIS]

Okay, great. So we'll put that in the show notes and there'll be on the website so listeners can find you on there.

[JOE]

Thanks.

[CHRIS]

But thanks for coming on today, Joe.

[JOE]

Oh, it's been a delight and it's just great to connect with you again and thank you so much for doing this.

[CHRIS]

For sure. I know we got to keep it better in touch.

[JOE]

Well, we'll do our best, like get a cup of coffee or something.

[CHRIS]

Absolutely. And I want to thank my listeners for tuning in today as well. And I need your help if you could please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Until next time, take care.

If you're loving the show, will you rate review and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform? We just started this and that helps other people find this show. Also, if you're feeling uncertain about your modalities and you want to build your confidence to be your unique self, why don't you to join my free email course, Becoming a Holistic Counselor over holisticcounselingpodcast.com. In my Becoming a Holistic Counselor course, you'll get tips for adding integrative care into your practice, what training you need and don't, and the know-how to attract your ideal holistic clients. If this sounds like the direction you are headed, sign up at holisticcounselingpodcast.com.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.