Episode 178 Positive Benefits Of Mindful Movement Practices: Interview With Jessica Patching-Bunch

Chris McDonald: Are you ready to discover the amazing and healing benefits of mindful movement practices? In this episode, we explore the world of mindful movement and explore how these practices can positively impact your mind, body, and spirit from enhancing flexibility and strength to reducing stress and promoting inner peace.

Mindful movement offers a holistic approach to wellbeing that goes beyond the physical. Join us as we explore the science behind these practices and uncover practical tips for incorporating mindful movement into your daily life. Get ready to awaken your body, calm your mind, and embrace the power of mindful movement.

On this episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. Thanks for being here today. This is Holistic Counseling, the podcast for mental health therapists who want to deepen their knowledge of holistic modalities and build their practice with confidence. I'm your host, Chris McDonald, licensed therapist. I am so glad you're here for the journey.

Welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. I'm so glad you're here with me. I wanted to mention though, if you haven't gotten your copy of Self Care for the Counselor workbook, it is available on Amazon. Get yours now as jam packed with practical, easy to use strategies to help you bring more balance to your day.

And I'll share a link at the end of the episode. But for today we are exploring the positive benefits of mindful movement practices. We'll be discussing the science. Behind them and how you can integrate more mindful movement into your day. Our guest here today to guide us on this journey is Jessica Patching Bunch.

We call her JPB for short. She is a stress resilience coach on a mission to change the way we understand and approach mental health by providing practical approaches to understanding and managing stress. Struggling with stress related illness most of her life, she took her background in neuropsychology and set out to address a real gap in accessible alternative mind care.

and wellness education translation, helping you understand your nervous system so you can drop the shame and guilt that keeps you stressed. Welcome to the podcast, Jessica. Hi, thank you so much for having me. So I wanted to start, if you could share some background on your interest in combining physical movement and science, when you help people.

Jessica Patching Bunch: Yeah. So this started before I really under understood the science or had any kind of background in that. I taught gymnastics when I was a lot younger. I was in gymnastics since I was a kid. And then, and then I taught. And my favorite thing about teaching was seeing people kind of connect their inner and outer strength and how their body works and how to use their muscles and just tuning into what their body is doing and then how to do all of these high level skills because of that.

Along with the the visualization as a practice in those kinds of sports because you visualize it and how you want it to go. And then you make your body do these incredible things. And that was so fascinating to me back then. And fast forward, I don't know, 15 years. And I, I did my undergrad in neuropsychology, which I kind of just stumbled on a class called perception because I just think perception is such a fascinating thing.

And it ended up being a neuroscience class. And I just Fell in love with learning everything about the brain and then going on to learn about how my focus is really stress and anxiety and the stress response and learning how movement is such a huge piece of managing stress and nervous system health and mental health.

I just kind of went from there. I just got really curious. You're speaking my

Chris McDonald: language. This is, this is all that I talk about all day with clients and talk to about with therapists with self care. So yeah, it's just so important to have both, I think, with being able to understand yourself, but then, you know, be able to move more so that you can help yourself regulate better.

Yeah.

Jessica Patching Bunch: And I think that's, that's part of it too. We have all of these different modalities that, that are used within therapy. I'm not, I'm not a therapist. And so many of them are, are kind of emotional processing. There isn't, isn't a lot of movement. There's a lot of introspection, reflection, and we have to move.

We have to take action. That's how your brain and body can make those changes is with motion. And so it's such an important piece. And I love to see. More people implementing that in, into work with humans in whatever

Chris McDonald: capacity. Yeah, that's why I use yoga with clients. And that's why I teach therapists now how to use yoga with clients.

Cause it's the therapy world. The beautiful part is I think we're moving towards it, towards more somatic practices, which is just amazing.

Jessica Patching Bunch: Yeah, I see a shift. I'm kind of a network with a lot of therapists and mental health professionals. And I see that shift and it's so exciting. And I see a shift of more like education around physiology and how we work and a shift towards more neuro based practices.

And I love it. I love to see it. I think, again, I'm so curious about it. And I, and I just like see the benefits. I think it's such a good direction to go in.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, for sure. So I know we're going to talk about the positive benefits of mindful movement. So can you share what is mindful movement so people can understand what we're talking about?

Yeah,

Jessica Patching Bunch: mindful movement is just. Any type of movement that you're doing. It doesn't have to be a specific kind of movement, uh, where you are paying attention to yourself and you are, and I think I don't teach mindfulness, but to me, it just means you are paying your focused attention. To whether it's inside of you or outside of you, and so with movement, it is just in a way, a way to connect to our body and move in a way that lower stress and releases that arousal energy and then strengthens the connection between mind and body and strengthens our awareness between that connection because.

that connection exists, whether we are participating in it, whether we're aware of it, it is just, there's no separation between our mind and body, which is another reason I really like the mindful movement practices. I think it highlights that when we have such a history of within science, and then we're, I think, well out of that for the most part, but the idea that our mind and body are separated.

And it's just, it's not no, no system in our old school. Yeah, exactly. But it's, it's amazing to me how those ideas stick and how, you know, we are adverse to change. And so I think those ideas just have such a strong root. It's hard to really kind of change that. It is. It is changing. And I love to see that, but none of our systems work separately.

Everything works together. Everything heals together. And so, uh, mindful movement is just paying attention and having that connection to what's going on inside of you, around you, as you are moving.

Chris McDonald: Is there certain practices like yoga or Qigong or any of those that you think are more helpful or they all have their own benefits?

I think

Jessica Patching Bunch: they all have their own benefits and I'm not incredibly familiar with yoga as a practice outside of like vinyasa or, you know, uh, kind of a workout capacity and Qigong the same thing. I am familiar with what it is not in depth and so I can't speak to like the specific specifics of those, but I think that and so I.

And so what I'm saying is I, there could be additional benefits for each specific modality, but I think that in movement, when you are doing that mindfully, there's such positive benefits of mindfulness and movement separately, that combining them in any capacity is, is going to be beneficial. And when we think about movement, it's not just things like yoga or, or big body movements.

Movement is also the movement within you. Your breath is such an incredible mindful movement tool that I think we don't, we don't really consider that movement. Uh, that's true, but it is the smallest and most frequent movement that we make. There are so many different types of mindful movement and I think they can all have different benefits, but are all beneficial.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. So how does it help with emotional regulation? Do you think, and not just one specific practice, but mindful movement itself?

Jessica Patching Bunch: This is such a big question, which I love. During mindful movement, you have so, there's so much complexity going on in the communication of your different systems, your body, your brain, your different sensory systems.

And It helps to integrate these pieces so there is better communication. And so when we're in mindful movement, I think there is a heightened sense of, of the interoception, which can be hard if we have experienced trauma or have found it to be unsafe in our bodies. And so with the movement, I think it distracts from that a little bit because there's so many other pieces of information coming in.

Your visual system is taking in all of the sights around you. Your auditory system is, is paying attention to the sounds. And then you have, you know, your, your motor cortex getting information from your senses and then having that, you know, the, the motor, the outward response. And then that interoceptive piece is sending that information from your viscera into the part of your brain that kind of.

Makes sense of that and communicates with your, the front part of your brain, your kind of frontal lobe, and then creates these thoughts and feelings about whether it's safe or what needs to come next. And so with the emotional regulation, we have to have a little bit, we have to have that sense of interception because otherwise we're missing those internal cues.

That mindful movement helps us to strengthen that and practice that in what I feel like is a, is a more safe kind of environment because you have all of those other inputs. Whereas for a lot of folks, just kind of sitting with yourself can be really, really difficult. And so the benefits of movement alone.

Increasing, you know, things like dopamine and serotonin and norepinephrine, and it depends on what kind of movement, do a little bit different things, but those all help increase your attention, your memory, your focus, your concentration, overall self regulation skills. and your ability to be mindful in your movement.

And so then it's this incredible, like positive feedback to where your movement is helping your mindfulness and your mindfulness is helping you get in touch with that, that regulatory ability. Yeah. I'm

Chris McDonald: just processing everything you're saying. I'm sure listeners

Jessica Patching Bunch: are too. I just, I love that it is how it happens is so complex as we are, because again, nothing works.

There are just, our systems are always communicating back and forth, but the practice of mindful movement, it does not have to, it's not complex. It can be very, very simple. Yeah.

Chris McDonald: Can you give an example of how simple it can be? You can be

Jessica Patching Bunch: walking and just paying attention to. How your feet hit the ground.

Which part of your foot hits the ground first? How are your arms swinging? What do you, you know, are your shoulders kind of leaning forward or back? Just what is your posture? What is your face doing? Do you hold, are you holding tension? Um, all of those kind of things. physical cues. And then we also could have shift our awareness to our external environment.

What are we hearing? What are we, what are we seeing? What are we smelling? All of these kind of outward facing sensory experiences. And then we can also go into that. Interoceptive exploration of, okay, now if it feels safe, like what am I feeling as I'm experiencing all of these other things around me? And so again, I feel like I made that sound, sound more complex, but you're just go for a walk and pay attention and that's it.

Just, that's it. And even if you have, it can be as simple as paying attention to one thing. You don't have to go through all of those things. Those are just options. Go for a walk and pay attention to your breathing. Is it fast? Is it slow? That's it. That's all. Yeah.

Chris McDonald: All right. Or you can just pick one area, right?

Feeling your feet as they hit the ground. Yeah, exactly. Just notice. Yeah. So do you think mindful movement, is it helpful for certain people, certain kinds of people, or just in general for everybody?

Jessica Patching Bunch: I always have, I'm very careful to just overgeneralize. Yeah. Right. Because we are all, all different and need, you know, a variation, you know, kind of a spectrum of, of things that, that help.

But I do think that it is useful for everyone because of the benefits of there. There's so much literature out there documenting the positive benefits of mindfulness alone and increasing, you know, density and thickness of the brain and how it functions and our ability to, you know, increasing our memory and attention and all of these things.

And then when we add the movement, again, movement is helping to release that arousal energy and lower stress and kind of boost our brain function and our, and our mood. So the extent to which those kind of interact will be different for everybody, but it will be beneficial

Chris McDonald: for everyone. I know it's probably harder for people with like a tension deficit disorder.

I'm sure it's harder to folk, but I would think that would help with focusing.

Jessica Patching Bunch: Absolutely. And I, I think I can't, I don't know the specifics, but I know there has been done some research in that area and movement does, again, it allows that energy to, to move in the body and out, which helps increase that focus and attention.

So again, the extent to which it is, you know, exactly what it's going to do for is, is different for everybody. Again, beneficial. Can you talk

Chris McDonald: about the nervous system? Like how, how does it benefit the nervous system? What are the benefits that you know of? So

Jessica Patching Bunch: many,

Chris McDonald: so many.

Jessica Patching Bunch: So where to start when we're talking about which parts of the nervous system, I guess, um, we talked a lot about kind of what it does for, for the central nervous system, for the brain.

If we go into the somatic part of our branch of our nervous system. That is helping us to again, send those signals and kind of translate our, our sensory experience, um, how to navigate physically in the world because of that. And my focus is on the autonomic system, that stress kind of response and movement is so huge for the regulation of our nervous system in that regard, because again, it helps to move that energy when we get this, you know, our threat response is activated, we get this surge of, you know, adrenaline and, and There's resources that help us move in the world, whether we need to fight or flee, it gets us ready for that.

So much of the stress that we have now, we're not running from lions. We're not, we're not in that kind of physical danger that evolutionarily was, was necessary. And so much of our stress now comes from social stress, work, jobs, traffic, money worries, the stress of being on screens all of the time and being sedentary.

And so that arousal energy doesn't have anywhere to go if we're not moving. And it needs to, it needs to go somewhere. Otherwise it stays in our system and just causes all kinds of havoc, turns into anxiety. And I mean, just so many mental and physical issues. And so it's the movement. We have to speak our body's language.

To help process

Chris McDonald: say that again, we have,

Jessica Patching Bunch: we have to speak our body's language and that is movement. Your body doesn't know what money worries are traffic or whatever else is happening. It knows movement. And so in order to keep your nervous system healthy. The mindful movement is, is necessary, both in the way that it is helping to, to move that arousal energy.

And also when we are paying attention to that, when we are, are mindful of that, we are able to kind of sense those internal cues a little bit more. We're also. Directing those actions. We are choosing to do that mindful movement. And, you know, one of the biggest threats for our brain is uncertainty. And when we have that certainty in our movement, because we are choosing it, we are choosing how, how we're doing it for how long we are doing it.

That also helps to regulate that autonomic side of our nervous system. And with a lot of these mindful movements, they are slower. We're kind of releasing our attention in our muscles, allowing blood to flow. And some of the positions we're using in things like yoga are helping to kind of massage or activate that vagus nerve, which helps then stimulate the parasympathetic side of our nervous system, calming, bringing that balance back when there is that thread activation.

And so mindful movement is essential and kind of a bottom up, top down intervention for, for that autonomic arousal.

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Yeah, I was just telling Jessica's story before we got on today that I had my own interview. I went to this morning and I was so nervous. Like we get nervous too, even if we're podcast hosts, Jessica has a podcast too.

So she knows what I'm talking about, but for some reason it just hit me today. I'm overtired and it just, my vulnerability was there and I was just like literally just like shaking. So I was like, afterwards I'm like, okay, I need to do some yoga, do some breath work. I did a restorative pose, legs up the wall.

And then it's like, you know, what I found is my body just was like shaking and then it eased up and, you know, I did a little breathing and then I was good. It was like nothing happened. So can you talk about that? Is that releasing like the stress response in some

Jessica Patching Bunch: way or? Yeah. And I love that you touched on the shaking.

Yeah. Yeah. What is that? That is such, that is just your body's natural way. Oh, okay. Of releasing of spending that energy of, of releasing some of that, that can be really scary if you, if you don't know what's happening and you're just, you're really stressed out, you're anxious and you're, and you start shaking that can cause more worry, more concern because you start to think like, what is wrong with me?

What is happening? And so like, we were also talking about this before we, we hit record, but that understanding of how your body works of the physiology, it helps you to be able to recognize those signs as. Your body's help. It's, it's not a thread. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just how your body's responding and it's trying to help you.

Your body's always trying to help you. And so, yeah, so legs up the wall again, how simple is that? You're just fly down, put your legs up the wall.

Chris McDonald: It's my favorite

Jessica Patching Bunch: kind. It does not have to be complicated and I love it so much, but by doing that, you're immediately taking the pressure off your heart. Uh, so your heart slows down, which then communicates with your rest of your autonomic system.

That it's okay that you're safe that you can slow down a little bit and you're not ready to ready to go. So, in that initially that helps if you're focusing on your breathing a little bit, then you can add that extra kind of intentional input to help activate the parasympathetic system and and kind of let that.

Let your system know that the threat has passed and we can go to go back to a balance or balancing. And then with that shaking again, yeah, that's just your body's trying to get, get rid of that and spend that energy. And so that seems like a, such a cool example of your body just going through what it needed to go through to release that, that nervous energy and your ability to do something so simple to help.

whisk that.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. And I thought this was perfect to do that today. This talk today that you and I have, but, but I think, yeah, exactly. The problem is, is that most people we push through it. We try to push through, keep going, got to keep rolling in my day. And I could have done that. Let me just get back on my email.

Let me do what I got to do. But I think if I did that, it would have just. Lingered, like you said it, my body just would have felt still anxious and stressed and couldn't release that intense. So I just honestly felt like nothing had happened. Yes. It's weird in a way, but it's really cool. Yeah. Well,

Jessica Patching Bunch: cause it's, I think it's weird because it's not, that's not what we learn when we're young.

Exactly. Right. And I think so many of us. I think they do more of this now. So like younger folks, I think have a better kind of understanding, but that's not something we learned in school was how we work. We learned how to read and write, but you know, how to self regulate just like what your body does.

There was no talk of that. And so, and we live in a society that is very, you know, go, go, go be productive. So ignore yourself and get things done. And so when we do stop and take that moment. And again, like you said, it's not, you don't need an hour. You don't need,

Chris McDonald: no, it was like 10 minutes. Yeah.

Jessica Patching Bunch: And it is incredible to see.

So, so it can feel strange of like, Oh, I feel okay. When you're, when you're used to just like pushing through and not feeling that. It is different, and you can recognize that because it is you're helping yourself to switch into a different state. And

Chris McDonald: yeah, that's it, isn't it? We have the power, don't we,

Jessica Patching Bunch: Jessica?

Oh my gosh. I, I think that is one of the things, and I, I had to learn that in my life and I learned that, you know, kind of, I don't, I was going to say late, but whatever that means that what you do makes a difference. We are experienced dependent learners and our stress response system in particular, but our, our whole system is so receptive to deliberate practice and deliberate input, and it learns so quickly.

And so, you know, your, your systems are just waiting for, for directions for directions. And so what, what directions are we, are we giving what signals are we sending? And Despite being intentional for 10 minutes, we are giving different instructions and we have so much more agency than I think. I know that I was ever taught as far as interacting with our body, being able to change our physiological state, you know, which changes everything, physical health.

And I think the education around that helps us to know that We have the power to change those things or interact with them and really

Chris McDonald: believing

Jessica Patching Bunch: that. Yeah, well, I think when we understand why we're doing something, it's more motivating to do that thing instead of like, Oh, you know, I'm, I guess I'm, I'm breathing.

And that's, that's such a, that's a great example. Actually, you know, I've. I have heard my whole life, just take a deep breath, just breathe, take a deep breath. But what does that mean and why? And when you understand that when you breathe in certain ways, it is changing your physiology, you're, you're able to kind of flip a switch on, on your stress response and what's happening there.

And so then you can be more intentional about it and say like, okay, in this moment, I know what's happening. I'm going to take these actions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then again, that, that uncertainty piece, that uncertainty and lack of control is such a huge source of threat for our system that again, we have a feeling of agency.

We feel powerful in the, in our ability to affect change in ourselves. And I think that's one of the most, that is probably the most incredible thing we can learn.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. And for a therapist listening just that you can teach your clients this, and that psycho ed piece is so important in what we do that the more you can teach clients so they understand themselves and normalize these responses, please, that that's what is so helpful.

You know, I've had so many clients that we exit out of therapy and they say, I'm like, what do you remember the most? I'm learning about my nervous system because I'm thinking, Oh, what, you know, was it this conversation or this didn't know that learning piece for them was just so impactful. So therapeutic.

Yeah.

Jessica Patching Bunch: And that's a lot of the work that I do that I really enjoy helping people with now is, is learning about those things, how your nervous system works and how to interact with that. So then you, there's so much blame and shame and judgment around, why can't I just get, get it together? Why can't I, you know, why am I feeling like this?

And it takes the opportunity to, to blame yourself and kind of shame yourself for those things, because you understand that it is just, this is how my body's responding. And then I can do this thing to help.

Chris McDonald: So what kind of movement practice do you like to do in your personal practice? I

Jessica Patching Bunch: like So, so many different movement practices, and I think they are all beneficial in different ways.

I'm thinking about like, when am I really mindful when I love lifting weights? And I know that when I'm lifting things that are really heavy, I have, you know, I'm building into that, that proprioceptive sense, my, my sense of myself in the world, that, that I'm really strong and I'm capable. And you have to have the awareness of what your body is doing, what the different pieces of your bodies are doing to be able to do that.

So you're not injured. So I do a lot of that. And then I, I do a lot of like mobility, stretching work similar to yoga, but I don't really follow a yoga practice or, or have any of the kind of traditional yoga pieces there. So I don't like to, to necessarily say that, but Um, the slower movements and that's where I think it's a deeper kind of mindfulness that I'm able to have where I am more connected to that interoceptive sense and what is happening within me as well as where my body is in space and what's that, what that's doing.

And so I like a whole spectrum of things and, and they, they help in different ways. Yeah.

Chris McDonald: And I'm just thinking about you with lifting weights too, cause I lift weights as well, but you can bring so much mindfulness into it. Just really just tuning in, feeling the muscle, feeling the weight as you pull it up.

Nice. And the slower you go, of course, that's better for physical too, you know, to build your strength, but also for that interoceptive awareness. Okay. I can feel it. And like you said, the proprioception too, and so many benefits to slowing down. Yeah. And that's,

Jessica Patching Bunch: and that's it. I think, I mean, lifting weights, like.

Like anything else, it's easy just to try and rush through it. We're always busy. You know, just get it done.

Chris McDonald: Check it off your list.

Jessica Patching Bunch: I mean, there's, we all have long lists and lists that run over into the day over. Yes. So it is, you just want to, you want to do the things. And I think, especially when we're trying to take care of ourselves, we're trying to check those boxes, but when, when we slow down.

We're able to see more, pay attention to more. But that's

Chris McDonald: true though, that bringing that awareness and just really helps you tune in more externally and internally, I think. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So, so powerful. Well, I know a lot of our listeners are therapists and they struggle with consistent movement practices as part of their self care.

So do you have any recommendations of how people can keep motivation going for that? I love

Jessica Patching Bunch: the word motivation. Um, because it doesn't exist. Well, it, okay, I won't, it exists. Um, it is not the thing that gets us to do, to do the movement, to do the thing that we're trying to do. It's actually what happens in anticipation of that thing.

And so for movement, we, we have to move to prime our brain to motivate us to move. We move, we get the benefits from that. And then next time your brain is like, Oh yeah, I want this thing. And then your motivation comes. And so when, you know, when you're caring for other people in such an intimate capacity, and, and that takes a lot of space.

My first thought is just like, it's necessary. You have to move your body in order to care for yourself. But how to do that? Start small, take two minutes, if that's all you have and run in place for a minute and then, and then, you know, stretch in whatever way you want. I think it's really important to do a little bit of higher intensity.

And I don't want to say that because people think about like super, super intense things, but just getting your, uh, your heart elevated, your heart rate elevated a little bit to move some of that energy. And then doing something slower, slowing your breathing, slowing your movements to then balance that out and bring your, uh, the other part of your parasympathetic side of your nervous system into play so that you can then balance.

And you're practicing being intentional about elevating and then down regulating as well. So I think start small. That is just, and you have to, I mean, for everybody that helps, helps with behavior change, we know, we know what to do. It's the doing part. And we have to make that barrier to entry just so low, make that threshold so low that there's, we don't have excuses.

You know, I don't have my clothes or I don't have time or whatever it is. You can do it anywhere. You have two minutes. You have five minutes. You do. Everyone does. In between clients.

Chris McDonald: Exactly. When a client cancels. I'm giving you ideas.

Jessica Patching Bunch: Yeah. And that's, yeah, exactly. In between, I, something, something on the internet, a therapist that I, that I follow and she was talking about, you know, in between my clients.

I have to do these, these exercises and movement doesn't have to be what you think of traditional exercises, shake your body out, bounce up and down, and then take that moment to, to rest and pay attention again, five

Chris McDonald: minutes. Sometimes I make a goal for myself. Okay, today I want to do tree pose. So let me find that because I'm all into yoga.

Or, you know, maybe I just want to lay down and do a Shavasana to end my day. What a beautiful gift to yourself, something so simple. Just to release, you know. Yes.

Jessica Patching Bunch: And coming back to it, it's, it doesn't have to be complicated and we love to complicate things. And it doesn't have to. And we also, I think this is a whole other talk, but the relationship we have with movement in our society is so unhealthy.

And we get these messages that movement is for Aesthetic change. And so then we have these ideas that if it's not fast enough or hard enough or, or long enough that it doesn't count. And so, yes, something like Shavasana, you're not like making big sweeping movements or anything, but it is incredibly beneficial for that mindfulness.

Yeah, exactly. To pay attention to yourself and give yourself the moment to release and decompress. It doesn't have to be long and complicated and super

Chris McDonald: intense. Maybe bring your knees to your chest and hug them. Yeah. There you go. Something that simple, right?

Jessica Patching Bunch: Yes. That is key when we're, you know, when you're exhausted and you have given all of your energy, keep it simple.

Make it, make it as easy as possible on yourself. Yeah. So

Chris McDonald: what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you? I

Jessica Patching Bunch: am on Instagram, mostly jpb. brainbodyresilience. And then my website is the same www. brainbodyresilience. I actually believe it's brain bodyresilience. We'll put it in the show notes.

Yes. And those are the two places I spend most of my time. I do, uh, like you mentioned, also have a podcast. Again, brain body resilience, I like to keep it, keep it simple. So yeah, those are the three best places to find me.

Chris McDonald: And I have listened to her podcast and you have to listen. If you like this one, I think you'll love hers.

Or if you're a neuro, I call myself the neuro nerd too, because I love all brain stuff and movement. So yeah, you will love her podcast. So I will give you a shout out. Definitely. But thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Jessica Patching Bunch: Yeah, absolutely. I love this conversation and anytime I get to just talk about these things, I'm always happy about it.

Chris McDonald: I feel like I can learn so much from you. Definitely. And my listeners too. And listeners, I want to thank you for tuning in right now. And I have a question for you. Are you struggling and feeling burned out? Do you feel like you always put others first? If you want to boost your energy, build your stress resilience, and discover more balance, I have for you the Self Care for the Counselor Companion Workbook.

In this workbook, you will power up your self care, and this is meticulously designed for you. based on who I am as a counselor, because I am the same as you out there in the field. So these are practical, but easy to integrate. So go to hcpodcast. org forward slash workbook. That's hcpodcast. org forward slash workbook.

And once again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Till next time, take care. Thanks for listening. The information in this podcast is for general educational purposes only, and it is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are giving legal, financial counseling, or any other kind of professional advice.

If you need a professional, please find the right one for you. The Holistic Counseling Podcast is proudly part of the Site Craft network.