Episode 168 The Chiron Effect | Healing Our Core Wounds Through Astrology, Empathy & Self-Forgiveness: Interview With Lisa Tahir

Chris McDonald: Have you ever heard of the Chiron effect? I know I haven't. In today's episode, you will discover the purposes of it in finding your core wounding and how to heal those places through empathy and self forgiveness. So sit back, relax, and join us for this episode as we sit down with the insightful Lisa Tahir, author of The Chiron Effect.

Stay tuned for a conversation that transcends conventional therapy, offering profound insights into ourselves and how it can help you as well as your clients to heal from core wounds. This is an episode you don't want to miss. So let's get to it. This is holistic counseling, the podcast for mental health therapists who want to deepen their knowledge of holistic modalities and build their practice with confidence.

I'm your host, Chris McDonald, licensed therapist. I am so glad you're here for the journey.

Welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. We have the pleasure today of moving into the transformative world of healing with our guest, Lisa Tahir. She is a licensed clinical social worker, certified Reiki practitioner and author of the compelling book, The Chiron Effect, healing our core wounds through astrology, empathy, and self forgiveness.

So this is more than a book. It's a guide to understanding and healing our core wounds, which are those deep seated challenges that shape our lives. Lisa's approach combines her therapeutic expertise with the ancient wisdom of astrology, providing a unique perspective on how we can navigate our personal narratives towards true healing.

Welcome to the Holistic Counseling Podcast, Lisa. Thank you

Lisa Tahir: for having me, Chris. I'm so happy to be here today with you and our audience.

Chris McDonald: And I'm so excited to have you. So I wanted to start with what inspired you to write this

Lisa Tahir: book? You know, I have always wanted to write a book and maybe like some of you listening or viewing, I had scraps, like notes written on scraps of paper in a pile.

Of a book ideas over so many years and it wasn't until this question came to mind. I was really wondering, Chris, why do some of my clients who are really successful, really insightful, still encounter some emotional. disturbances that can really affect them for a bit. And why was I still experiencing some emotional issues and, and hardships after having been in therapy as a client for a number of years, as well as being a therapist, really about healing and holistic healing, it kind of baffled me.

And I just kind of turned it over to meditation, like universe, what is going on here? And I heard the word Chiron. C H I R O N. And it wasn't very exciting, to be honest. I didn't know what that really meant, besides Carl Jung's archetype of Chiron, the wounded healer. And, but you know how something will just keep coming up and coming up, almost like Yes, the universe speaks, yes.

Yes, like needling me to research Chiron. And that's where I was totally inspired and convinced and committed to spend The next two and a half, three years writing my book on healing our emotional wounds through empathy and self forgiveness.

Chris McDonald: Love that. What is the Chiron effect? Cause I told you, I saw this book and I was like, I have no idea what this is about.

I have not heard of the wounded healer archetype. I'm not familiar with that either. So can we just jump into that?

Lisa Tahir: Sure. Wouldn't. So the Chiron effect, think of frequency, vibration, energy. And what I mean by that is that the thoughts that we think carry a measurable frequency, our thoughts uplift us, they can have us be in a neutral.

Kind of place, or they can really take us down into depression, into hopelessness, when we feel stuck and center our thoughts like around these patterns. We have patterns of thoughts and every day we have people, places and things that we habituate and we call that our daily routine. And I started to see our daily routine and our thoughts as we are.

Planets orbiting other planets, people, places, and things. And we are orbited by our community, by our people. And I started to understand that to really uplevel the life that we're living, how we feel, the money we make, the relationships we have, the life experience that we're living is. It's totally sourced in the thoughts that we think repetitively that creates belief systems and our belief systems inform the actions that we take or don't take and we can only go as far as our largest limiting belief and that's what the Chiron effect speaks to because Chiron is placement in your astrological chart.

So I'm going to make a little jump here from our thoughts to astrology. And I had always seen astrology as a, as a blueprint, so to speak in the stars of when we were born. And I even had kind of a hardship with That like, that somebody's going to tell me what my life is supposed to look like. And then I, yeah.

And then I realized I had that totally mixed up. We wrote our own birth chart. Like I wrote my chart, you wrote yours. You are the author of your life. And if there's something that you don't like, or that as we live this human experience, we realize, uh, you know, I thought I wanted that, but I don't, we can learn the skills to change and it's the understanding where we're vulnerable.

And there are 12, what I call core woundings. These are also for, it's on a spectrum for some people with trauma, people have experienced sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, traumas. These are more really deep wounds, feeling like our world isn't safe, feeling like we're not good enough. And on the other side of that spectrum, it might be some more like, ouch.

Uh, experiences when we were growing up that it's like, Ooh, that, that didn't feel so good, but we have a stronger sense of ourself. And so my book gives you an interactive website to enter your date, time, and place of birth if you have it. And it generates your placement in Chiron.

Chris McDonald: Oh, cool. I said number, was it number one?

I'm gonna say yeah.

Lisa Tahir: Okay, so we can make this really real. Chiron and Aries speak, and this is a different sign than your sun sign. Yes. Like when somebody asks you what your sun sign is, that's different than where Chiron is found. Chiron and Aries speaks to a core wounding or vulnerability, whichever side of the spectrum resonates with you and your sense of value and worth.

And this is a pattern where you might have earlier on or younger on. Did some people pleasing to source love, believing that we need to offer value to be loved instead of just, we are lovable, even if we don't give or perform that we're just innately, we have value and worth and. You might have exhausted yourself, like doing a lot of achievement, but never quite feeling that deep satisfaction that you hope to have from it.

And it's about learning to get off of that kind of treadmill of performance based love of achievement and really sourcing your value and worth. In some like more inner reflective ways that you're kind, that you're intuitive, that you're sensitive, that you're loving. Is any of this resonating for you?

Yes.

Chris McDonald: Okay, cool. Yes. I was like, how does she know this? This is weird. I didn't tell her this before,

Lisa Tahir: you know, and I think it just makes it helpful. So whenever you, Experience kind of a, um, a low point emotionally in the day. It's like, Ooh, am I not valuing myself? Like, how might I not be feeling worthy? You know, you can kind of source it back to this one area to strengthen yourself in with your thoughts, with your belief systems, with your actions that you take for yourself or things you might pull away from.

to recharge and refresh your energy. So I think it's just really helpful to understand. Yeah. So it's

Chris McDonald: almost like making that shift from the external validation and people pleasing to internal worth. 100%. Which we, we teach clients that too. It's just funny because, um, I know a lot of therapists go in this field and you probably realize this, that we're trying to heal ourselves, but, but that's a lot of what you just said is the clients I see too.

Yeah. That's kind of what I interact to. So it's like, I'm trying to help them, but it's like helping myself. Absolutely. Working through that.

Lisa Tahir: Because we've all been through things and, and I've even used my book when I'm feeling, when I've experienced something that feels like an abandonment, for instance, that would be Chiron in the sign of cancer.

Or when I've neglected myself or I felt like I've been neglected, that would be Chiron in the sign of Taurus. And it can just help you kind of pull out of that more quickly. Because I give four or five takeaway steps as well as some affirmations to use to work with healing the beliefs you have about yourself.

And I know from listening to your show, it's so key, the beliefs that we have about ourselves, how that really sets the orbit. We're at the effect of that. And that's where the Chiron effect is. I'm just,

Chris McDonald: I just have a, I'm very visual and I see things, so I'm seeing the orbit. I could see like even like negative thoughts or how that could just kind of, we're in that cycle of almost being stuck.

Right. In some ways and, and that energetic field almost just keeping us there because we haven't realized it even sometimes and don't know what to do to make these changes.

Lisa Tahir: Exactly, Chris. And sometime even when we talk to well meaning others, it can kind of reinforce sometime that, that stuck place. If it's not a person that really has the vision to help you even have a broader vision for yourself.

And so I've learned to maybe work with some things privately first that I'm experiencing emotionally. And then if I do bring it to someone, to share it with someone that I know. really believes in, in me and life, you know, they're really about, of course, this is going to work out like their solutions. And so that might be helpful to someone to be mindful of who you bring your innermost thoughts and feelings to.

So I

Chris McDonald: know that was online. Then, uh, how to find your Chiron. So is this something that anybody can use online too?

Lisa Tahir: Yeah, it's actually, when people go to my website, NOLA therapy, there's a button that says, order my book, and that will take you to the interactive website to enter your birth. data. And it also shares a bit about my book for you to see if this would be helpful for you.

So that's accessible if you buy the book or not. Yeah. So

Chris McDonald: that, so listeners, if you want to do that kind of see where you are with these core wounds. So I know you mentioned when I was reading about your book too, about empathy as a key element. So tell me about how does, what does empathy have to

Lisa Tahir: do with all this?

Well, you know, Chris, I realized that we are often our, our harshest critic, despite knowing that. That's not the healthiest way to think about ourselves. It, and I really wanted to hit home, softening the judgments that you have towards yourself and really bringing in empathy, because I am certain that everyone listening or watching, you know, understanding the context of your life and whatever you've experienced, it really does make sense in the context of the lens that you look at life.

And so I think we really deserve to have some empathy. For ourselves where we might not have had the tools or the self awareness or the insight to choose differently and find ourselves in a place, be it in our lives in a concrete way or in a more abstract, you know, emotional way that to learn to forgive.

And I think women especially have kind of like layers and layers of, of judgments and criticisms. We expect a lot of ourselves typically. And I think it's learning to have a self forgiveness practice to even review your day. Like when I lay in bed, I'll take a few moments and just kind of reflect on. how I showed up in ways that I feel proud of, that I liked, or even just felt neutral about.

And then maybe where I kind of was being harsh with myself about a certain area or topic and just, you know, say inside of my heart, like, Lisa, I forgive you for that. Like, I forgive you for having that need, having that. You know, feeling such a way just to really release ourselves from judgment. How does that feel to you as I say it?

Chris McDonald: And I know you have your hands on your heart when you say that too. I know that's really just kind of help can be helpful to go inward to just that self touch and softness. And I use call it self compassion too. So trying to reframe, right. Some of the thoughts that we have towards ourselves. I'm guessing if the self talk is very negative, that's going to leave you more stuck too.

And just. You know, more in that wounded place.

Lisa Tahir: Yeah. And I think it's through progressively upgrading our self talk. And there's a part of my book where I talk about how we have up to 70, 000 or more thoughts per day. And while there's no way that we can be aware of all those thoughts, if you just kind of capture one or two of those.

That's causing you to feel a disturbance or a distress. And it usually sounds something like, like I'm not doing good enough here, or I didn't do that right. And if you could just even stop and identify what you want to believe about yourself instead. And it could be as simple as the opposite of that.

Like I'd love to believe. That I'm figuring this out. I'd love to believe that things are going to work out. I'd love to believe that, like, maybe I'm, there's some more good that I haven't seen yet. And then that's what you can write down on a sticky note and kind of carry around. Like, I want to believe better for myself.

To progressively get to the better feeling thought because if we say a thought that's so far away from how we feel it's inauthentic and I think ineffective if we just kind of write down like I'm happy when you haven't been, you know, to really affirm, like, I want to feel more happiness. I'd like to feel.

more health. I'd like to know blah, blah, blah. And to really make it authentic. Yeah.

Chris McDonald: If it doesn't connect with your heart and soul, then it's just not gonna vibrate, right? Exactly. You might as well say

Lisa Tahir: nothing. You're so right when you say it's not gonna vibrate. And it's like, you'll know it cause you feel it like, Ooh, like, okay, that's a possibility for me.

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I know that is so challenging for, for women. I know you mentioned women too, because that can be difficult with all the expectations on us. I think one thing for listeners to remember is. What are your expectations really just to reflect on that and how can I make them more realistic and give myself and give myself the grace card?

I've been giving myself a lot of grace

Lisa Tahir: lately. I like that. Chris. How so?

Chris McDonald: Well, I'm creating this course for therapists on integrating yoga into sessions at the same time. I'm doing it. So it's really, it's a little stressful, but I'm doing it, but I'm doing it. So that's the amazing part. But of course, self doubt can come up like, who am I to do this?

Like, who am I to teach this? So, so it's really recognizing that and, and just reorganizing my life so that I have space for this is what I've learned. I like that. Looking at my expectations.

Lisa Tahir: You know what I think that's. That's so very important because even a day like today where I'm, I'm coughing and, and feeling close to a hundred percent, but not quite there to just allow myself some more ease today.

Like I changed some things around. We even changed our time to allow, which I appreciate so very much to allow me to kind of get some extra rest and just to be conscious of that. But it's okay. To change things for yourself, to give yourself what you need.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. And to reframe that for yourself too, because maybe what some of the things I was doing before in my business I could do, but I don't have time for it all.

And I have to look at it realistically because I was just putting way too much pressure on myself. Yeah. And that's, that's not good for anybody.

Lisa Tahir: No, it's not. And also, you know, your chyron being an Aries, sometimes people wouldn't even know, Chris. And

Chris McDonald: that's it. Yeah. Cause they're like, yes, people will say, oh, you're amazing.

You do all this. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm having a freak out,

Lisa Tahir: but nobody knows cause it doesn't show. Yeah. You can, you know how to hide that well. And so it's learning to, maybe we don't have to hide. That's so much. Maybe we can be more open and, and ask for some help. That's

Chris McDonald: it. Right. Cause we can't do everything.

That's the thing. I think that's the, I feel like that's a theme in our country too, is just like women can have it all right. And have everything go smoothly, which. It doesn't work that way at all, right?

Lisa Tahir: And I think we can have it all in a way that's, you know, uh, feels more in, in a flow state, more easily, more allowing, and absolutely we can have it all.

And I think it's just allowing it to come in ways that are more satisfying and soothing. rather than

Chris McDonald: stressful. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I did some, I'm going to my own therapy now and using brain spotting with, they're using brain spotting for me cause I used it too. But you know what I discovered too is a part of myself.

It's, I don't know if it's part of that Chiron energy or it's such a strong director using IFS. It's just like, okay, I get tunnel vision and just go. And you have to do it this way. It's almost like a demanding teacher at the front of the class. Yes. I've been able to work through that and tell it to step back just a little bit.

We can. I like that. So yeah, I don't know if that's helpful for listeners to, to think about, do I have that strong director too that might be helping create these unrealistic expectations.

Lisa Tahir: I like that. Thank you

Chris McDonald: for that. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's just, it's been a amazing process to witness for myself too through therapy.

I think it's so important for therapists to get their own therapy. And I do too. Absolutely. We all need

Lisa Tahir: that. Yeah. It's been immensely helpful for me again, going back to empathy for me to empathize to my client's experience of being on the couch, so to speak. And how do I know what that's really like if I haven't taken time to be on the couch and understand.

The vulnerability and kind of, you know, the, the nervousness around even crying in front of someone, you know, that can be, that can be a lot. That's really vulnerable. It's, it's a big ask. So absolutely being in therapy as a therapist is a value that I share with you.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, for sure. So I was wondering, as we're thinking about this with the holistic therapist listening, is this something they can use in sessions with clients?

Yes,

Lisa Tahir: it will help the work. Be more focused. And, and the reason I say that is cause there've been times I have a client come in and feel like they don't know what's wrong with them. And my heart always goes out to that kind of person and that kind of comment, because there's nothing wrong with you. You really make sense in the context of your experience.

And I sense that you're struggling with some emotions or situations. And let's find those solutions for you, but first by not really pricking at yourself and poking at yourself, feel like there's something wrong. You know, I imagine you went through experiences that were confusing, that didn't make sense, but that doesn't mean that you don't make sense.

So it can help people really self soothe too.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, and understanding that this is for everybody. It's not just for the clients like therapists go through is everybody in the world has core wounds. Right. Or

Lisa Tahir: vulnerabilities. Or vulnerabilities. Depending on, on where. And sometimes those things are. what we call a trigger.

And I think by understanding our Chiron placement, we can know that when we're triggered, it's, it's from that, that Chiron wounds or vulnerability where it's like, oops, like out, somebody steps on it. And we might temporarily feel lack of worthiness or like we're not being seen or heard empathetically.

That would be Chiron in the sign of Gemini. And it's a matter of just kind of. Speaking to that younger self, I think often, Chris, like speaking to the younger self that's triggered and letting them know, hey, like I'm with you in this, I see you and, and doing that, you know, it's called inner child work.

Dialoguing with those parts of ourselves that need to know things they didn't know the first time they went through it.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because I think that inner child work. can really be beneficial with when you, especially you integrate all this together. That's why I love holistic therapy so much.

Me too.

Lisa Tahir: Yes. Because we're so multidimensional and holistic therapy really reflects our multidimensionality. Because I wondered,

Chris McDonald: I know a lot of listeners are, I've, I've had a lot of them reach out about using astrology in clinical sessions. So I guess for you is, has that ever come up or as a problem?

with licensing boards or what are the ethics with that, I guess is what

Lisa Tahir: I'm thinking. It's never been an issue in my practice. I know, uh, individually some clients have felt like astrology doesn't offer a lot of value and some clients that are say more intellectual in positions of, of higher education even like have been kind of critical of it.

So, you know, that's fine. Like it's right there, you know, there's something for everybody and, but I really Convinced of this Chiron placement as identifying where we feel vulnerable and try to hide that instead of really trying to love that part of ourself, really understand the deeper need that that part of us has, because that's what comes up.

as patterns in our relationships and in every way. I just think it's so key. And to understand if the astrology is a hard part that you don't have to believe in astrology to understand that we have patterns, you have patterns. And even when His Holiness, the Dalai Lama endorsed my book, the letter he wrote and sent to me, he spoke about being a Buddhist scientist and not someone who utilizes astrology, but that the principles laid out in my book absolutely are how.

Humans heal through empathy, through self forgiveness, through meditation, through understanding our patterns. So, you know, I would hope you wouldn't let that be an obstacle, if it's going to offer you some, some value and, and how to feel better and work with your thoughts.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that with the Dalai Lama saying that too, because it just sounds like it's this, this is like humanness, right, to our journeys and it doesn't, yeah, I think people get too caught up in, oh, it's astrology, we can't, not research based

Lisa Tahir: and, But the other things are, because my book, uh, Astrology is just kind of the diagnostic point.

And then my book centers on taking personal responsibility, which I really believe in. I think that's empowering that we can take responsibility to heal ourselves by utilizing psychology and principles that have been researched and evidence based. So to me, it's like that holistic thing. Oh, for

Chris McDonald: sure. Do you have any ideas how therapists could utilize some of these strategies and sessions?

I think

Lisa Tahir: by having the client find their Chiron placement and then looking at what that core wound or vulnerability is and how it shows up in their life now. Because I think it's important to know how our belief about ourself that's limited, you know, is showing up today and where we're experiencing a dissatisfaction.

Because I think that That's what drives people to therapy, is to figure that out, what Chiron reveals.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, I think this could be really enlightening for them to understand themselves more, that self awareness is key to healing.

Lisa Tahir: And in relationships too, in couples, it can really help to know your partners.

Chiron placement, because I am sure that these are the areas that your disagreements center around. And I think when you can have an understanding and empathy around your partner's woundedness or vulnerability, it becomes less of a battle and more of like, okay, how can I help you? Like, this is where you feel vulnerable and wounded.

And it kind of changes the dynamic from being. conflict oriented to, I think, more helpful, like really helping each other heal this, this part of themselves. And it can just make relationships flow more smoothly

Chris McDonald: as well. Now I got to try it for my husband. Yeah.

Lisa Tahir: And see for sure.

Chris McDonald: We are so different. It's just funny to me.

That would be very interesting. What I can see even for other relationships, I work with a lot of clients who have come from parents who are emotionally immature. So I wonder if that would be helpful too, to figure out where their parents are placed on that.

Lisa Tahir: Oh, that's really interesting.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. Because I think so many struggle to understand because most of them like, like turn the opposite of how their parent is.

And so it's really difficult to, they struggle so much because they try to do so much better with their own children. Right. Yeah. Make

Lisa Tahir: those changes. Yeah. And it could be helpful to understand in your children, their Chiron placement. That's true too. Where, where they might need some extra support, some extra, you know, just being noticed and seen and handled gently.

Instead of critically, so they can learn to speak more loving kindness to themselves, because I know I wasn't taught that Chris, I wasn't taught to speak nicely to myself and it's taken my adult life to, to learn to do that. And what a gift if you can help your children with that, so young to be empathetic and forgiving of themselves, it allows them to be, to more easily forgive others and have healthy boundaries.

Chris McDonald: Oh, for sure. The earlier we can start with that, the better. Cause I try to teach my clients self compassion, but it it's hard, especially when they've had decades of not using it, it can really take a long time to get through that process to even start it, especially with trauma. I know that can really throw people off from that self compassion and take care of themselves.

Lisa Tahir: Right. And to bring that dysregulation of their brain into. regulation as well. That that's such a deep work. And I think the self forgiveness piece can be really helpful.

Chris McDonald: So how do you, how do you help clients with self forgiveness?

Lisa Tahir: I think it comes up, you know, even when I bring it up, Hey, like, it sounds like, or have you, have you considered forgiving yourself for that?

And sometime it's like shock, like, Oh my gosh, I never even thought about that. And even that aha moment is enough for change. To start, you know, to be like, well, what if, okay, what if I did forgive myself? And, you know, just like, you know, problem solving abilities are shut down when we're in hyper arousal, when we're in fight, flight, or freeze, we can't connect with problem solving.

And I think sometimes people have been living in this state of hyper alertness, hyper vigilance that's prevented them from connecting with the solutions. They so dearly and deeply want, and so to really add this self forgiveness layer can open even your central nervous system to start to calm down and come into regulation and know that you're going to have so many more opportunities to do this differently, whatever this is, and to practice, to start to practice showing up differently.

And I think you start to feel good about yourself doing

Chris McDonald: that. Yeah, it sounds like you've, you've seen some of that healing too with people, because I know I've had clients that have really struggled with the self for even bringing it up. They're just kind of shocked. Like what can I forgive myself? And yeah, but I think that can plant the seed right there.

Just, just to have that discussion.

Lisa Tahir: And I think part of that disconnect comes from forgiveness is typically taught is something you give to others. Others, yes. Yeah, I was never taught that it's something for me, and it's such a powerful tool. How are you gonna know how to forgive someone else if you haven't taken the time to forgive yourself for some things that You didn't know how to do differently or better.

Absolutely.

Chris McDonald: So Lisa, what would be a takeaway that you could share today for listeners who may be just starting their holistic journey? The

Lisa Tahir: takeaway is this value and worth piece is, is kind of our Time today is centered around that. I would encourage you to look for ways to approve of yourself, to really value yourself in intrinsic ways.

Like I'm a generous person. I'm a kind person. I go out of my way for others, even when it. isn't convenient. And that's a beautiful thing about myself to really look for those intrinsic valuable things and qualities within you and start to make a list of them. And when you start to doubt yourself, look at that list, because those are the things that really matter.

I think in life, kindness and compassion and having empathy, being sensitive, being thoughtful. I'd love for people to learn to value that more about

Chris McDonald: themselves. Yeah, that's so helpful. I think, yeah, writing it down so you can remind yourself in those difficult moments. What's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

Sure.

Lisa Tahir: The best way, Chris, is either, uh, if you're on Instagram, I am at Nola Therapy, N O L A, like New Orleans, Los Angeles, Therapy, T H E R A P Y. And that's also my website, NolaTherapy. com. And you can Google my name even, Lisa Tahir, and I come up, and I'd love to answer any questions or be available to, to our listeners and viewers.

Awesome. In whatever way will

Chris McDonald: help. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. Thank

Lisa Tahir: you, Chris. And I appreciate that you came on my podcast. I know.

Chris McDonald: I did. It was so fun. It was fun. And listeners, just so you know, I feel like Lisa's podcast is like the cousin. If you're a family, because she has a lot of holistic topics on there.

So many things that are just like, Oh my gosh, there's another therapist doing this as well. This

Lisa Tahir: is great. Thank you. Yeah. I was so happy to have you on. My show is called All Things Therapy and a holistic perspective is definitely my value as well. And you do so many things that I don't do. So I wanted to share you with the audience so people can connect with you.

So, you know, if, especially the yoga, how you combine that and brain spotting and some really. Unique paradigms and techniques.

Chris McDonald: Yes, absolutely. So check out her podcast if you haven't yet. And I, I really recommend binging it cause there's so many, so much great information there, but that brings us to the end of another episode and listeners.

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So join me on this remarkable journey for 65. You can earn 1. 5 credit hours by completing the course. Go to hcpodcast. org forward slash breathwork course. And then once again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Till next time. Take care. Thanks for listening. The information in this podcast is for general educational purposes only, and it is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are giving legal financial counseling or any other kind of professional advice.

If you need a professional, please find the right one for you. The Holistic Counseling Podcast is proudly part of the Psychcraft Network.