Episode 135 What Is Transformative Insight Imagery & How It Can Help: Interview with Kelli Underwood

Chris McDonald: You may be familiar with how powerful imagery is in the therapy room and outside the therapy room in sports, art, yoga, and many other activities. Guided imagery has its place as a valuable tool, but in transformative insight imagery, we go a step further, connecting with our images on a profound level, engaging all our senses, finding resource, and recognizing the positive impact each image holds.

With TII, you gain access to materials often hidden from your awareness, unearthing hidden truths and insights that can lead to profound healing and growth. Central to TII is the discovery of your own internal center, a sanctuary for replenishment. and relaxation. Here you'll find an array of resources waiting to be harnessed.

Wisdom, comfort, relaxation, and strength. All within your own reach. Accessible whenever needed. Are you ready to embrace the power of transformative insight imagery? Whether you seek personal growth or wish to enhance your professional journey, TII is a versatile, potent, and transferable tool that can guide you to your best self.

Join us today as we explore the depths of the mind, unraveling the mysteries of transformative insight imagery. Our guests will share a guided TII practice today, so you can gain the experience of it. So go ahead, take a deep breath, get ready for this life changing exploration on today's episode. of the Holistic Counseling Podcast.

This is Holistic Counseling, the podcast for mental health therapists who want to deepen their knowledge of holistic modalities and build their practice with confidence. I'm your host, Chris McDonald, licensed therapist. I am so glad you're here for the journey.

Hey there, and welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. Before we jump in today, I wanted to give a shout out to Wealth of Wisdom, who shared a kind review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts. They mentioned Chris's podcast offers a wealth of wisdom from the deep holistic practices. I love every episode.

Thank you so much, Wealth of Wisdom, for your kind words. If you want a shout out here on the Holistic Counseling podcast, be sure to give your rate and review today on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On to the episode, transformative insight imagery. This is a modality that's new to me, but I am so excited about the deep and profound benefits it can offer you and your clients.

In today's episode, we jump into what is transformative insight imagery? How it can be used in session and the positive and healing benefits of this practice. Today, we're going to peel back the layers of it, discover how it can be harnessed as a powerful tool for personal growth and self empowerment, leading to new realms of self discovery and understanding.

To guide us on this journey is my guest today, Kelly Underwood. She's a speaker, consultant, and psychotherapist. In 2013, Kelly moved to North Carolina and launched her own business to be aligned, providing speaking, consulting, and psychotherapy. She trains clinicians and provides healing retreats and transformative insight imagery, a holistic, powerful healing approach.

Welcome to the holistic counseling podcast, Kelly. Thank you. Thank

Kelli Underwood: you so

Chris McDonald: much for having me. Can you share more about how you got started with transformative insight imagery?

Kelli Underwood: Sure. I remember the moment so vividly. It was 1998.

Wow. You remember. Walked into Dr. Charlotte Smith's weekend retreat level, you know, the beginner transformative insight imagery retreat. And the door opened and I just remember seeing her warm smile and her very grounding voice welcoming me into the retreat. And that was really the beginning of my own journey towards wholeness and experiencing the power and the magic of TII.

Uh, as an imager and then eventually as an assistant and then as a, as a trainer.

Chris McDonald: Oh, wow. So you've worked your way up and yeah. So that tells me you're very passionate about this. Very

Kelli Underwood: passionate. Yes. I have seen the transformation for ever since then for myself and for everyone who's taken to it. So it's hard to not be passionate when you see how it impacts people.

Chris McDonald: So let's back up a bit. So what exactly is transformative insight imagery?

Kelli Underwood: So I always start by telling people what it's not. Okay. So it's not guided imagery and it is not just visualization. It's not guided imagery because All of the sensory material in your experience comes from you, comes from your psyche and your history.

It's not an outside person telling you what you're seeing or hearing or feeling or experiencing. And it's not visualization because in TII, we really expand all five of your senses. So we really invite the imager to experience it on all of their senses and have a really embodied experience. So I've actually had people, for example, I had someone recently who doesn't even have visual memory.

Which is a true disability. No, no visual memory and had a very deep experience with TII.

Chris McDonald: Really? Because I know that's, that was a question I had too, because I've had one client who could not do any visualization at all, period. So that you could still use this model with, with

Kelli Underwood: that kind of client.

Absolutely. In fact, you know, there's a tendency to think of imagery as visual. And for some people like me, I'm a very visual learner and remember and it and it is kind of visual for me, but for many other people, it can be abstract. It can be just an embodied felt experience. It can be that there are other senses are heightened, but not really the visual.

Chris McDonald: So other senses can be heightened for it. Yes. So is it more of like open questions about imagery or how does it work in a

Kelli Underwood: session? If I was to boil it down to why I'm so passionate about it, it's because in TII you're empowering the imager to get their answers from their own trusted resources that they've discovered.

And so I have watched people not only gain confidence. By doing the process, but I've seen them learn to trust themselves more and that they have their own answers. And I just don't think there's a greater gift for any of us than

Chris McDonald: that. Hmm. It's like the wizard of Oz. Yeah. It was there all

Kelli Underwood: along. It was there all along.

Right. And people, every time I see people just be surprised and astonished at what they discover inside them. I just get giddy because I know that's the moment. That's the moment when everything changes for folks. So TII has a resourcing aspect where we have people really develop different kinds of supports that they find a place that's very centering.

They receive gifts along the way that also become supports. People can have more than one wise guide or mentor. And then eventually they also meet what I call the essential self or the best self. So they're gathering all these resources that. From feedback for 25 years, people have said it's really helped them develop the skill of mindfulness.

It can feel very meditative for folks. It supports emotional regulation. And then there's also a transformative aspect where folks can go on an eight step deeper journey and people can shift blocking beliefs. They gain greater body awareness. There's also a really internal parts aspect where people can free lost selves and integrate them into their current life.

There's an embodied release piece. So there's really a body centered aspect to these journeys where people get more aware of what they're holding and where. And. The key is that the co facilitator is there to slow the imager down, help them have a more embodied

Chris McDonald: experience. So can I stop you right there?

So co facilitator, would that be the therapist? The co facilitator is

Kelli Underwood: the person they're partnered with. So when we do retreats, it may not be a therapist because everyone's going to learn how to just support someone in their own experience. When I train therapists, I'm really training them to witness, mirror, encourage, asking empowering questions, such as what needs to happen next?

What are you willing to do? Who or what is available to help you right now? These might be some co facilitator questions. Are you willing to become something here and experiment a different perspective? So with therapists and body workers, I'm really training them because it's a different way than many other techniques.

It's really about getting out of the way and trusting the imager. And I have to tell you, it's really kind of magical for any person, client or otherwise, to have somebody there really present and witnessing. And cheering them on, so to speak, but owning what they do to heal whatever it is that's coming up and they decide with their trusted resources what they need to do to transform it.

It's a pretty, I see people just a lot of ripple effects after they do a journey. Um, and then. One of the last step in the eight step journey is integration. People have often said TII has aspects that feel very similar to many other practices out there, including aspects of EMDR, aspects of people say shamanic journeys.

Internal family systems pieces, um, but Charlotte Smith created this in 1980. So go figure that, you know, good, good therapy seems to have a lot of similar features.

Chris McDonald: So it could be just different parts of different modalities all combined in one, huh? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Is there certain mental health issues that this is more helpful for?

Is it, or is it for just about everything?

Kelli Underwood: Great question. I have used t I I with all different ages. Children. It's very easy with children 'cause they're actually less inhibited. It may be more conversational. It may be done through play therapy or art therapy. I've seen it be very effectively integrated with body-centered approaches.

I will say the one group, the one candidate, that's not, not a great fit. for TII would be if somebody has reality testing, if they're, you know, recently or actively have had like delusions, possibly somebody who has a specific type of brain injury, if it's impacting reality testing or certain stages of dementia, it could be problematic for them.

So those would be the folks that I would say probably don't try it with them to start with. But outside of that, I have worked with folks who are in. Deep grief who worked on healing from a traumatic experience. anxiety, blocking belief, a literal event that seems to be a sticking point in their life all the way to not even knowing what is really getting in the way and tapping into some implicit memory or some unconscious material through the journey.

Chris McDonald: What about intrusive thoughts? Is it helpful for that? In

Kelli Underwood: terms of the resourcing, I would love to go and ask some of my clients now that you're asking me that question, but I think, um, I definitely have. see a lot of people feel more centered and settled, feel like they have accessible tools for things like intrusive thought.

So I don't know that it stops them from happening per se, but do people gain some ability to go, Oh, that's happening. And I can go in and have a conference and I can call in this part of myself, or I can merge with my essential self and I can address whatever the intrusive Thought is often like a fear or something, they can shift it.

So shifting it, absolutely. Interrupting it, absolutely, would be my answer.

Chris McDonald: I know you said empowering, so it sounds like this is really based on teaching some of these skills and tools for clients so they can help themselves through these, these issues that come

Kelli Underwood: up. Yes, absolutely. We do a lot of practicing when and how you want to access one of your resources.

And so it's sort of like, you know, athletes do a lot of performance enhancement. You know, we do imagery to practice success. And so we, we do that a lot with TI. I use it. I went to my center before we started this podcast today just to get a little more settled and catch my breath.

Chris McDonald: Have you been wanting to integrate breathwork into your sessions?

But are unsure how, or maybe you want to refine your technique. Shifting from traditional talk therapy to using more holistic modalities can bring some feelings of uncertainty and fear. This is understandable. I've been there. I was hesitant to try any and worried I was doing it wrong or wasn't even allowed to use these in therapy.

I'm here to tell you that this is within your scope of practice. In my many years of experience and training, I have found breathwork to be one of the most powerful holistic modalities therapists can use in session. And now I'm offering you this 90 minute self paced training so you can be prepared to facilitate breathwork with your clients safely and ethically.

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Go to hcpodcast. org forward slash breathwork. That's hcpodcast. org forward slash breathwork today. Can you share a, an experience with us of what it's like with TII so we can all. understand it a little better because I think if we just talk about it, sometimes it's hard to know, really, really know what it's like.

Sure.

Kelli Underwood: So the first thing we do is find our home base, our anchor, which is our center. I would love to give you that experience. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. And then what we do is we really open people up to the infinite possibilities of how this place can support them in their current life and really having people practice using it.

Shift any moment. That's what we're going for. So let's. Let's find your center. Are

Chris McDonald: you ready? I'm ready. Alistair's ready. So,

Kelli Underwood: always a choice. Always do what works for you in TII. If you are aware that keeping your eyes open will help you to be more focused, keep your eyes open and I just encourage you to find a focal point in the room to rest your eyes gently and softly.

If you know that you will be too distracted with your eyes open and you prefer to close your eyes, definitely do that. But it's always a choice what works for you. So just get really comfortable. Take, I always encourage people to just do a couple of, you know, sighs or relaxing, exhales, just sort of be a little more here.

Definitely want to have your full attention in the imagery. So you don't want to be trying to do something else while you're doing TII. So if you're driving, please pull over. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm just going to invite you to be open to whatever comes. Trust whatever comes to you that you're going to get exactly what you need today.

And when I say a peaceful, relaxing, replenishing place, wherever you would most like to go, give yourself full permission to go to a peaceful, relaxing, and replenishing place. It may be Your favorite vacation place. It may be a place you've always dreamed of going. Maybe a real place that you access in life.

And you might be surprised by what place is coming to you. Or you may choose to go where you want to go. Give yourself permission to be there. Portal yourself into this place now. Notice what you see or sense or feel here as you arrive. What is the temperature in your place? How large or small is this place?

And how light or dark is it? Listen for any sounds.

Take a nice, deep inhale of the air here and notice how it feels to breathe in the air. As you take in another deep breath, see if there are any smells here.

And notice what's beginning to shift inside you from breathing in your plate. Maybe

there's something you want to feel the texture of through touch. And perhaps there's even something you want to taste. Give yourself a moment to do whatever you'd like to do here. Notice where and how things begin to shift in your body as you do that. Thank your center for coming to you today and for the wonderful support that's here for you.

Now set your intention. When would be a really great time to come back for a visit? Maybe to help you fall asleep, maybe before you start your day, maybe on a break. And then also, consider this, a moment that might happen in your day where you get a little ungrounded, you get a little activated or stressed.

Now as you imagine that moment happening, just practice using your imagery, practice if you took three or four breaths of your favorite parts of your center. Maybe it's the sound and the smell, texture, and you just take a few breaths, notice that it's enough to shift you so that you may be able to go back into that situation and do something different.

a little different. Can I go to sleep now? Good. You're relaxed. That's perfect. I was there. Yes, you were there. I knew it. I was there, too. I have about, I have about 10 different centers, to be honest. That's one of the things I love about TII.

Chris McDonald: So if you do this more than once, sometimes could something else come up?

Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. We want that to be when it's really hot here. It's summer. I get, I find myself going to the cool mountains, right? And when it's winter and I miss the sun a little bit, I find my center on the beach showing up more and I'm preparing, I'm planning some travel right now. So I keep finding that the places that I'm longing to go to are coming in as centers and I haven't even been there yet.

So what we need shifts and what's beautiful about TII is what will come to us will match our need.

Chris McDonald: What will come to us will match our needs.

Kelli Underwood: I always say the imager will get exactly what they need today.

Chris McDonald: So you said the word imager. So that's the person that's coming up with the image.

Kelli Underwood: Yes. That's right.

And I was the co facilitator and we say co facilitator because the imager is really the facility and I'm

Chris McDonald: the co facilitator. Oh, I see. That's why I just wanted to make sure that was clear. Yeah.

Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. So that would be the resourcing. And then we would work on having you access these things and. When and how are you using them?

A few breaths here or five minutes there. And the more trust you have in your supports, a wise guide mentor would be the next one, maybe getting some gifts along the way that, wow, I got this, uh, beautiful red heart one time. And in the imagery, it was just like holding pure unconditional love. And so we also encourage people to manifest their gifts.

And so sometimes when I'm needing a little unconditional love, I just put it in my hand and really feel what we call the isness of that support. So this is sort of a very unconditional love support. Charlotte Smith is one of my wise guides. She has a very strong grounding. Strength support. My dog sometimes comes my puppy.

Chris McDonald: So you said wise guide. So is that just trying to picture someone that would be a guide for you? So the wise guide

Kelli Underwood: mentor, it comes in any expression of love, support and wisdom that works for you. Many people have animals appear pets. People who have crossed over, come back, spiritual teachers, real people in our lives, celebrities make appearances, and sometimes it's just a form of light, color.

An object had someone who had a wise guide mentor came as a huge oak tree. Someone else had just this beautiful orb of light was their wise guide mentor. So there is no limit to how that wise guide mentor may appear for you. Whatever form it needs to take based on what's going on in your life and your language.

Chris McDonald: So is there other resourcing that you use? Yes. So

Kelli Underwood: in addition. Each time we go in, we often get a gift, an additional, tangible, symbolic form of support. We may help people practice. Accessing and integrating that gift, just like my heart, into their actual life, right? So, how can that support you when you're in that situation?

Then we move into that eight step journey and, and the possibilities are endless as to what people may work on or discover or shift or transform in their life. Had someone the other day who, 50 some years old, for the first time in her life after she freed her seven year old self and has been really integrating this.

This young part of her that was, was injured and hurt. She walked into her parents home and when her father started to berate her for the first time, she told him to stop. And when he did not, she turned and walked out of the house. Wow. Mm. Good for her. And the power she felt that she has different, she can make different choices now because she's feeling more whole and her adult self was able to stay in charge as she walked through her childhood home.

Mm. Love that.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. That whole empowerment piece. So is this, this model that you go like, I know, like EMDR, I know I heard is more structured and, you know, and I do brain spotting, which is more flexible and we can kind of do it a little bit differently. We don't have to go by specific protocol. So is this a more flexible kind of model or is it, what is it like?

Kelli Underwood: Yeah, I would say it is. Definitely more versatile and integrative than other things I've found. And I definitely have had a number of people recently telling me they have found it really helpful in the phase two resourcing of EMDR to help clients just feel more embodied in their resourcing, more connected to the resourcing.

I would say, yes, there is a way of. Co facilitating that is helpful for the imager to have a deeper experience, but I've had, I have a Reiki person who uses it. I have touch therapists and touch body workers who use it to help clients get something in a different way. Or to help them feel more anchored or aware in their body.

I was trained in Stephen Terrell and Kathy Cain's touch work. I have seen really remarkable results by doing touch work with the nervous system and having the person do imagery on the area of the body where they're feeling activation. They've done a whole journey there while we're. You know, doing the touch.

So it's, it's really versatile and integrative, I would say. So does

Chris McDonald: this work with physical issues in addition to mental health? I

Kelli Underwood: have seen innumerable people get insight and awareness as to what they might be holding emotionally. in a physical part of their body that they did not previously have. Lots of amazing stories.

I, I have my own story of having a lot of neck issues and found that I had no idea I was holding a whole lot of stuff from way earlier on in my childhood and my neck knew. And after I did that work, I really had a different kind of awareness and I could be much more preventative with my neck before it was where I couldn't move.

And, you know, I had to go to the chiropractor because I, I couldn't move my neck. So I've seen that a lot with folks, that they get more awareness in an embodied way. And we do in the level one training for healing practitioners, the first partnered experience is going somewhere in your body that's calling out for help.

Chris McDonald: Gotcha. Hmm. So, so I guess with chronic pain, that could be an area that could be utilized and

Kelli Underwood: absolutely. And I've also seen people and myself included use their TII gifts and resources to manage an injury and illness or pain. So I've seen people go through serious medical crises, cancer, and they've used TII before they go into treatment, during treatment, after treatment, I've seen people with like migraines who've used the resources just to help them.

You know, for example, I had one person who. When she would first feel the headache coming on, she would go in with all of her guides and mentors and go to the area in her head and image that she was creating an opening to let all the steam out. Ooh, I like that. And then she would use her hand to do support and she would ask, you know, this is the cool thing.

She would ask that part of her head, you know, what. What's happening? What is it that you're needing right now? And she would really learn to listen to that part of her body. And she felt that that helped her. I will say it does also helped me with some of my. My stuff, I, I went through a health crisis and did a lot of TII on what I was holding in that area.

After my surgery, I went back in and worked with that area with TII and, uh, my resources helped me more than once when I was in the doctor's office, having a lot of anxiety about what was coming next. And I would call in all my TII resources and, uh, I felt like I had a room full of love and support in there.

Chris McDonald: Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. I think resourcing is so important to have that in and to be able to call on that too. It's just in all these difficult times.

Kelli Underwood: Absolutely. And to see people get confident, like I have things I can do on my own that help me, that support me and I'm starting to feel successful.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, that's powerful. Absolutely. So when was the moment you realized your body and nervous system were an important element of healing? Oh.

Kelli Underwood: This is a bit of a personal story for me. So I would say the first moment was, I don't know, are you familiar with the book that, that Rothschild wrote the body remembers, I think it was about 20 years ago.

That was like the first one for me, the body remembers that really opened my eyes. And then I would say. I really had a powerful experience. I have been a trauma therapist for years. And don't you know, it takes your own personal trauma to help you go to a different level. But I was in a pretty serious car accident where someone ran a red light and hit me.

And it was about four years after the car accident that I had my first time ever a full body flashback of the accident. Before my brain knew what was happening and why I was triggered, I did not realize I was going through the intersection, but my body was reliving the whole accident. And so that was a transformative moment for me in an embodied way of understanding how the body does remember and how the nervous system has its own way of encoding and recalling and triggering.

past memories.

Chris McDonald: Absolutely. That had to be powerful.

Kelli Underwood: Yes. I was glad I had someone else in the car because it was a little scary at the moment because you don't know exactly what's happening. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But it helped me understand that they're connected, but different the mind and the body and the nervous system.

And how

Chris McDonald: are you able to heal yourself

Kelli Underwood: through that? Actually, um, used, I did get EMDR. I used. I went through some TII myself as an imager and. Found both of those things really helped me heal.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. So both, huh? I wonder if that helped you have even more empathy for clients too, that go through something like

Kelli Underwood: that.

I think every time for me, I have had a trauma. I have gotten new understanding, just a deeper level, right? A deeper level. and new insight and empathy and compassion in ways that are really helpful in being a better therapist. In my opinion, I went through the somatic experiencing training. So I incorporate S.

E. into my work. And I would say that that was also a part of healing. Actually, it was many years later, but the accident, the car accident came up again in my S. E. work, and I got some new pieces. to

Chris McDonald: heal there. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that integrative approach of different modalities to that. That's what I love so much with holistic counseling is just finding all these different pieces of things that can bring you to a better place and work through

Kelli Underwood: things.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think the thing about being integrative and having a menu of options for folks and then customizing that menu of options for what works for the person in front of you.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. Cause I think about, I'm trying to think of clients I have, if I've ever just used one thing and I can't think of anybody real.

I mean, really? Cause it's just like, there's, they get so many things from different things. Everybody does.

Kelli Underwood: I totally agree. I totally, I can't imagine not being integrative. I can't imagine not thinking about the mind, the body, the, the emotions, the spirit, all of it. Yeah.

Chris McDonald: No, that, that would be to me, it's like kind of flat, like one sided, right?

If you're just doing cognitive, I mean, it's possible. I mean, it can be helpful for some people, but right. I just feel like we're, we're so dynamic, holistic beings. Yes.

Kelli Underwood: We, um, in the advanced training with Charlotte, we had a identification, dis identification thing that we learned that is still really helpful to me that we would, I'm really abbreviating it here, but I have thoughts and I am more than my thoughts.

Yes. I am I. I have emotions and I am more than my emotions. I am I. I have a body and I am more than my body. I am I. And I, there were many times in my life when I would just stop and do that with myself. Just recite that. So say it again. I have thoughts and I am more than my thoughts. I am I. I have emotions and I am more than my emotions.

I am I. I have a body. And I am more than my body. I am I. It's like a mantra. Yeah. But It's powerful. Absolutely. And I think in our culture, don't we get kind of pulled into whatever's happening in that moment where we can feel like that is who we are. I am so angry and then I am my anger. We over identify with it, especially our thoughts, I think.

Right.

Chris McDonald: And I think clients come in often to that. I'm an anxious person. I'm depressed instead of I'm someone who is feeling depressed.

Kelli Underwood: And I understandably with everything that's going on in my life, I am feeling depressed. I am struggling with depression right now. And

Chris McDonald: I validate people with that all the time.

Like, no wonder you're experiencing this with all, if you say it out loud and sometimes clients are like, yeah, that's true.

Kelli Underwood: With good reason. There's a lot going on. People have good reason to be. Feeling the way they are and thinking the way they are, but that's not all of who they are. That's not all. Yeah.

Chris McDonald: So I think listeners, if you can get anything out of this episode, even just writing that down, the I am I, and you are more than those things. You're more than your thoughts, emotions, your body. That's getting deep there,

Kelli Underwood: Kelly. Yeah, we went there. Thank you, Chris. That was great. I felt that I, when you said it, I was like receiving it and it was like, Oh, for the reminder.

There

Chris McDonald: we go. Awesome. So what kind of training is involved if therapists are interested in learning more about this? I like to

Kelli Underwood: say that in TII, I've really made it a focal point to be more affordable and not as long.

Chris McDonald: I noticed that looking around your website. Yes. And

Kelli Underwood: not as hard to learn and start using.

So. I have a recorded online introduction on my website that I think is a very reasonable price where you can get all your resources and can start practicing using them. And then also on the platform, if you guys are familiar with CE training workshops, I just did a three hour introduction for therapists and that recorded version should be on hopefully soon.

If people want CEs, they could do it that way. And then we have three levels for healers. It's one day for level one, two days for level two and two days for level three. And we will be providing CEs for everyone except, sorry, for psychologists. It's become too difficult. So we won't, we won't have CEs for psychologists, but all the other mental health folks can get CEs and we have a level one scheduled actually for September the 15th, you do have to do the intro.

So you have those resources when you come to the level one, but you can do that on the 75 minute recording on my website, or you can find me.

Chris McDonald: So that's the intro 75. Yeah.

Kelli Underwood: 75 minutes. That's not bad. No. And, um, actually I think we're going to be posting a coupon for half off. So I think it would be like 19, 20 to do that intro.

If you're interested. 19, 20,

Chris McDonald: really? You are right. That is affordable. Yes.

Kelli Underwood: So anybody, I want everybody to have access to this.

Chris McDonald: So accessibility,

Kelli Underwood: accessibility, and we also, I want to say have started a scholarship for practitioners who. maybe are just out of school or maybe just have encountered some tough times financially.

And so we have a scholarship in Charlotte Smith's name. Charlotte passed away two years ago, and it was important to her that TII could be available and anybody who wanted it. So you can always apply for the scholarship

Chris McDonald: too. Nice. I love it. So what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

Probably the best

Kelli Underwood: way is to go to kellyunderwood. com. It's K E L L I underwood. com. And you can also follow me, Kelly Underwood, LCSW on Facebook and Instagram. Okay,

Chris McDonald: cool. So we'll have that in the show notes for listeners to find you, but thank you so much, Kelly, for coming on the podcast. This was really enlightening.

I feel like we're kindred

Kelli Underwood: spirits, Chris. I love

Chris McDonald: being here with you. Awesome. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. If you want to join me and other holistic therapists who are as excited about deepening their knowledge of holistic modalities as you are, come on over to my Facebook group, the Holistic Counseling and Self Care Group.

In this group, you can ask those burning questions about how to integrate your modality into sessions. and get other ways that you need support. So come join us today at hcpodcast. org forward slash holistic group. That's hcpodcast. org forward slash holistic group and come join us. And again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love till next time.

Take care.

Kelli Underwood: The

Chris McDonald: information in this podcast is for general educational purposes only. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are giving legal, financial, counseling, or any other kind of. If you need a professional, please find the right one for

Kelli Underwood: you.