Episode 25 Holistic Treatment of Eating Disorders with Rebecca Capps

Aug 25, 2021

What are some holistic strategies that can treat eating disorders? How do mindfulness and breathwork come together to strengthen the benefits of intuitive eating? Can you bring aromatherapy principles into eating disorder treatment?

MEET REBECCA CAPPS

Rebecca Capps is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist committed to helping clients feel good about their body and happy in life—without food guilt or dieting. She named her practice Mind-Body Thrive because she takes a holistic approach and believes that in order to thrive, one must consider both the mind and body. Rebecca lives near the beach in Santa Barbara, California, with her husband and 1-year-old son, Rowan.

Visit her website. Connect on Facebook, Instagram, and Pinterest.

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IN THIS PODCAST:

  • Intuitive eating as a treatment for eating disorders
  • Mindfulness and breathwork for eating
  • Benefits of aromatherapy

INTUITIVE EATING AS A TREATMENT FOR EATING DISORDERS

It’s ironic, like, just giving yourself unconditional permission to eat because when we say: “I can’t have the brownies”, well obviously we’re going to think about the brownies until the cows come home. Giving yourself unconditional permission to eat and to honor your taste preferences and to notice how they play into your satisfaction. (Rebecca Capps)

Intuitive eating is a powerful tool that people who have suffered from eating disorders before can use to overcome the intense restriction that they feel over their food and their body.

After a long period of time stuck in an eating disorder, people become detached from their hunger cues and can no longer identify – or trust – their body when it is telling them what they need.

In this instance, intuitive eating is listening to what your body wants and learning to honor those cravings until the intensity wears off and you begin to seek out nutritious food instead of the food that you used to restrict from. In this, mindfulness is necessary.

[Intuitive eating] is a way to reject the diet mentality and to get angry a culture that has … fed us this myth that we need to always control and listen to “health gurus” and “fitness influencers” instead of tuning into our own body’s own natural, inherent wisdom, because the truth is that the body is inherently healing, it wants to heal itself and its actually the mind that keeps us stuck. (Rebecca Capps)

Intuitive eating helps people to get out of a cerebral realm and focus their attention on what their body is asking for, instead of what they think it should be asking for.

MINDFULNESS AND BREATHWORK FOR EATING

Mindfulness is an integral part of intuitive eating. You can combine mindfulness and basic breathwork to ground the body away from stress, out of past trauma or memory, and into the present moment.

From this place of presence, awareness, and a sense of calm, once you have removed yourself out of yesterday’s stressful emotions or this morning’s difficult situation, you can connect to what it is that your body needs instead of eating what your emotions feel like eating.

Breathing often mirrors our internal emotional state and truly those who suffer from mental disorders, specifically anorexia and bulimia, we need that kind of grounding to ground down and be in the moment so that we can tune into our hunger cues. (Rebecca Capps)

BENEFITS OF AROMATHERAPY

It is possible to use aromatherapy as a paired healing modality to treat eating disorders alongside doing breathwork. Different oils instill different beneficial feelings in patients, such as:

  • Geranium: instills self-trust,
  • Rose: opens the heart chakra,
  • Patchouli: helps with self-confidence,
  • Bergamot: calms a person from anxiety and stress.

Consider having a multi-disciplinary treatment plan, so that you are aware of how you can use different modalities and how they work together, instead of focusing only on one.

Connect With Me

Resources Mentioned And Useful Links:

Transcript

[CHRIS McDONALD]

The Holistic Counseling Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Behind the Bite, Full of Shift and Impact Driven Leader, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. .

Welcome to the Holistic Counseling Podcast, where you discover diverse wellness modalities, advice on growing your integrative practice, and grow confidence in being your unique self. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so glad you're here for the journey.

Welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. Today's guest is here to talk about how she's using a holistic approach to treatment of eating disorders. Rebecca Capps is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist committed to helping clients feel good about their body and happy in life without food guilt or dieting and I can't wait to hear about this. She named her proud Mind-Body Thrive, because she takes a holistic approach and believes that in order to thrive, one must consider both the mind and body. Welcome to the podcast, Rebecca.

[REBECCA CAPPS]

Hi Chris. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And I'm so glad we connected because I feel like this is something I hadn't even thought about, a holistic approach to eating disorder. I think that's fantastic.

[REBECCA]

Thank you. I really like to help my clients to feel good in their mind and body so that they can thrive in life. And that's why I named my business because because everyone deserves to thrive regardless of what they've been through.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So can you share more to my listeners more about yourself and your work?

[REBECCA]

Yes. So I help women to achieve lasting food freedom and body confidence without dieting or rigid kind of food rules. These women who come to me are people pleasers they're perfectionist and they're ruled by the numbers on the scale and they tend to carry a lot shame around. And that was definitely my experience. I struggled with a really hardcore eating disorder when I was, I think I was like 11 or 12 and it was anorexia nervosa and by the time I was 12, I was hospitalized and nearly died. So I have very a very personal connection to this cause.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So what interested you in more of the holistic approach?

[REBECCA]

you know what like [inaudible:

[REBECCA]

So it's really important to look at are we low in amino, zinc, vitamin B, things like that. I like to educate clients on how to optimize their health.

[CHRIS]

That makes a lot of sense too. And that's of course one reason I love holistic approach because sometimes somebody's depressed. It's not necessarily mental health. It's a physical health response to something or like you said, a deficiency somewhere. One of the things I like to do, and I don't know if you do this as well, is some of my young adults I see haven't had physicals, "I'm healthy." So I off often recommend that when I first see somebody for them to get a physical, to get all the blood work and just see where they're at with everything.

[REBECCA]

I'm so glad that you do that because I see a few young people as well. And that's just the common thing that they say I'm young, "I'm healthy."

[CHRIS]

I'm good.

[REBECCA]

Yes.

[CHRIS]

And then they're surprised like, oh, I'm really low I'm vitamin D. So I've had several clients too that are depressed and we find out they're low on vitamin D and that really helps once they get that supplement.

[REBECCA]

Oh, so good. I'm glad that there are more people like yourself out there doing good work.

[CHRIS]

Oh, thank you. Appreciate it. So how else do you use a holistic approach to treatment?

[REBECCA]

Yes. Great question. I really like also like things like Ayurveda. I found that, so you're familiar with that?

[CHRIS]

I have a guest I interviewed, she's going to be coming on the episode, it'll be I think in July. So yes. That's so going to be a great episode.

[REBECCA]

I'm so excited for that to come out because Ayurveda is like one of the most, it's like an ancient medical practice where you learn how to eat according to your Dosha type. In Sanskrit, it literally means like the science of life and it teaches that all illnesses affect the body and the mind. So it should never really be treated in isolation from one another. Because here in America we subscribe to this like Cartesian dualistic thing where the is separate from the body. And I feel like that couldn't be further from the truth.

[CHRIS]

Absolutely.

[REBECCA]

Yes. So here's the deal. There's kapha, vata and pitta and those are the different dosha types. The kapha dosha is like the earth element and people who have maybe larger frames, they gain weight easily and things like that. They mimic that of the binge eater. So I teach them how to learn how to live in their body and to really feel their fullness and to be attuned to it. Then there's a vata element and those are the people with maybe smaller frames. They tend to be underweight and dry skin, poor circulation. And when they're out of balance, they can be really anxious and rigid. They tend to mimic anorexic individuals. So that leads me to really work with them on how to recognize and honor their hunger and to allow all kinds of foods. And lastly, there's the pitta, which is the fire element. Those are the people who have strong appetites, strong digestion, strong metabolism, and they tend to mimic that of like the bulimic profile. So we work together on distress tolerance skills and all kinds of ways to eat according to their dosha type too. So I thought that's a really fun way to really ground down and learn how to eat through a Ayurveda.

[CHRIS]

That's fascinating. I had no idea that you used that. Wow.

[REBECCA]

Yes. And I have other holistic practitioners who are holistically inclined, naturopathic doctors and Ayurvedic practitioner who I like to work in tandem with. It's nice. It's a nice way to do my work.

[CHRIS]

You have that little quiz on your website. I took the quiz.

[REBECCA]

Oh you did?

[CHRIS]

But it's very interesting. I think that would be helpful too, for listeners to check that out on your website. Is there all different kinds of profiles on there?

[REBECCA]

Yes. Just basically learning how out to see if you are basically an intuitive eater or not what that says about like your personality. So it's important. A lot of people who come to me initially, they're just like, they're tracking their macros and they're really rigid in their thinking and if they go up a pound it's like life or death. And together through our work, we really look at how can we recognize and honor your hunger and to learn that hunger is a signal from the body and it's actually a good thing. It needs nutrition. We need to give ourselves adequate nutrition at regular intervals to assist our body's metabolism and to get out of the mind and into the body. So yes, that's kind of what I do just teach my clients how to establish healthy coping skills outside of just food and learning how to intuitively eat.

[CHRIS]

Well, it sounds like changing, thinking too about eating and food and nutrition. Is that a big part of it?

[REBECCA]

Absolutely. I love eating according to the seasons and just getting accustomed to your food, being with the food, going to the farmer's market, knowing the farmers. That's what makes it really fun. It's not something to be scared. We've got to look at food as medicine.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And overall health and wellness.

[REBECCA]

Mm-hm.

[CHRIS]

But I think you're right. I think a lot of people get into that, thinking about that it's almost an anxious thinking, isn't it that you know about is this low calorie, is this high calorie? Can I eat this? How much should I eat and just become obsessive about that. Well, I think it's our culture too.

[REBECCA]

There are so many different reasons why someone develops an eating disorder. And you're right, there are cultural influences. Family systems play a huge role. Trauma, a lot of women come to me with heavy trauma. There's this quote that says genetics load the gun, but environment pulls the trigger. And certainly genetics is a factor. It was for me. My grandmother suffered all her entire life with an eating disorder. And I think they say it's like up to 80% of your risk for developing an eating disorder is due to genetic factors, the genetics and your environment. So, I mean, for me, like my family life was really dark. It was traumatic. There was a lot going on and my eating disorder was just this welcome refuge from my suffering.

I had a father who had extreme mental illness and towards the end of his life and leading up to when he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, he suffered from like this extreme paranoia and sometimes like psychosis. Like he even built this bomb shelter in our house, thinking the world was going to end. I mean, it was really wild. And needless to say, it's not popular when you're, I think I was like in fifth grade to tell kids about this bomb shelter. So there's that. Obviously, other factors that can contribute is like feeling pressure to look a certain way, like you said, Chris, with the cultural dynamics. Every day we're bombarded with these messages about beauty and unrealistic body images and fat ---

[CHRIS]

We're recording here in may and everybody's talking about summer bodies and looking your best.

[REBECCA]

I cannot even deal with that, like beach body. Every one has a fricking beach body. Here's the deal though, Chris, people who diet are eight times more likely to develop an eating disorder than people who don't.

[CHRIS]

That's incredible. Wow.

[REBECCA]

Diets, I do believe they create more harm than good because almost everyone who goes on a diet, they're going to regain that weight within a one to five year period. So, obviously dieting by definition is a temporary food plan. It does not work in the long term. That's why I really try to get that into my clients' heads. Like we've we must reject the diet mentality.

[CHRIS]

That's got to be a huge shift for a lot of clients.

[REBECCA]

It is. It really is. I'm a student of a course in miracles and there's this one line that's like a miracle is a shift in perspective. And I find that to be so true. It's a miracle when the client realizes they have that aha moment of, oh my gosh, my dieting is what's making me sick. It's keeping me in this cycle.

[CHRIS]

Yes, exactly. So for them to come to that place and, it really can be like miraculous I'm sure. For you to see that, I'm sure that's very satisfying too.

[REBECCA]

It absolutely is. It's an honor. I love the alchemy between the client-therapist relationship, because we're both changed in the process. It's really a life mission here because it's close to my heart.

[CHRIS]

Yes. Sounds like it. So I guess for you, you've had some, your own personal experience with eating disorder. Is that something you share with clients?

[REBECCA]

I do. I tend to just share if it's in the best interest of the client, but more often than not, they do want to know, I mean like how do you know? Like, oh the heck, do you know this stuff? And why are you doing what you do? So yes, I would say I do disclose, I know that we're taught as clinicians to be like, what is it? The tabula Rossa. Be a blank slate, be that cold clinician. But I would say I do like to infuse somewhat of my personality into it and to not just be this boring blank slate.

[CHRIS]

Yes. I don't agree with the blank slate either. I think that really can help you bond with clients too, especially when they're like, "Oh wait a second. So you've experienced this." So they feel less alone and you're not so high and mighty therapist on a pedestal.

[REBECCA]

Right. Like that top down hierarchical approach. It just no longer works.

[CHRIS]

Yes. I don't think so either. I think that's great that you have that as well to share with clients.

[REBECCA]

Thank you.

[CHRIS]

So how do you help clients feel better about their bodies and stop that guilt with eating?

[REBECCA]

There are so many different ways, obviously like the intuitive eating. It's ironic, like just giving yourself unconditional permission to eat. Because when we say I can't have the brownies, well, obviously we're going to think about the brownies and Philly cows come home. So giving yourself unconditional permission to eat and to honor your taste preferences and to notice how they play into your satisfaction. A lot of the health gurus are like eat all the kale, eat all the kale. Well, if you don't like kale, then find what works for you. You don't have to eat kale all day. So definitely finding that satisfaction factor.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So can you share a little more about what intuitive eating is for those that don't know what that means?

[REBECCA]

Yes. It's just a way to reject the diet mentality and to get angry at a culture that has given us, it's fed us this myth that we need to always control and listen to the "health gurus" and fitness influencers instead of tuning into our own body's natural, inherent wisdom. Because the truth is the body is inherently healing. It wants to heal itself. And it's actually the mind that keeps us stuck. So I help my clients to get out of the cerebral realm and that's what intuitive eating does too. It's just tuning back into your body and developing that body trust. And there's one tenet, it's like gentle nutrition and joyful movement. Because a lot of the clients who come to me are like, I need to burn it to earn it. And that couldn't be further from the truth. We need to focus on what brings us joy in life, whether that's how we eat, our relationships. Health is a whole myriad of things really.

[CHRIS]

And from what I've learned with the course I took on it was about really tuning into those hunger signals. I think a lot of people get away from that. They don't even know when they're full anymore.

[REBECCA]

Exactly. When they first come to me, they're like intuitive eating. There's nothing intuitive about it. I don't even what I can trust because my body's telling me to go eat the whole thing at Oreos. So that's where mindfulness really comes in. And it's not like just sitting on a mountaintop chanting. No, it's like it's breath work. I love doing breath work actually because breathing often mirrors like our internal emotional state and truly those who suffer from mental disorders specifically like anorexia and bulimia, we need that kind of grounding to ground down and be in the moment so that we can tune into our hunger cues. And the body, it holds onto memories longer than the mind often in ways that people don't really realize. So again, I can't talk about breathwork enough. Like I love alternate nostril breathing and just things that are going to help you to ground down, get centered and to shift the mind because again, of course in miracles they talk about like an untrained mind can accomplish nothing.

[CHRIS]

Oh wow. So that's something to think about.

[REBECCA]

Yes. So intuitive eating, what else? I do like, and paired with the breathwork infusing like aromatherapy, that can be really nice, like an alternate holistic healing modality that can be used to compliment what we're doing as therapists. There are just so many great oils.

[CHRIS]

And what do you like to use?

[REBECCA]

So I love the geranium, said to like instill trust, self trust. Rose is a great heart chakra opener. The Churi helps with like self-confidence and I mean Bergamot, anxiety and stress, like it goes on and on, definitely frankincense. It's like hard to pick really. What I want to say though, as a caveat is although I do love essential oils, I don't wan to get dogmatic in anything that I do. Like I recently had a client who connected with a wellness advocate, an oil advocate and this person's advocate was not, they're not licensed doctors or clinicians ---

[CHRIS]

Or aromatherapists.

[REBECCA]

Right. So they're doing great work, but when they tell clients that they should not seek medical treatment it just, you know what I mean? So that is a problem. And I just, this is a new thing for me. I've not dealt with this before and I had to part ways with that client because they were not willing to seek medical treatment when, I mean, when you're suicidal or hormones ---

[CHRIS]

Ooh, so they wanted them just to use essential oil?

[REBECCA]

Yes.

[CHRIS]

Ooh, okay. And I always say this on this podcast too. It's more of a complimentary.

[REBECCA]

Exactly. Like supplemental.

[CHRIS]

Where you use strategy. Supplemental, yes.

[REBECCA]

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with that assertion.

[CHRIS]

Yes. They can help a lot, but yes, you got to be cautious with that.

[REBECCA]

Yes. So not to talk down on any of the wellness kind of advocates, but if you are one, please just know your limits here. Just as we as therapists know like we can't dish out certain types of advice. And that's why multidisciplinary treatment plans are so important, why we need to ---

[CHRIS]

I was going to say that.

[REBECCA]

Like we need to connect with physicians. That's why I do work with natural paths and registered dieticians, psychiatrists because for a psychotherapist we're helping our clients to address those underlying causes of the eating disorders and to develop healthier coping mechanisms for our clients. But we can't monitor vitals. We can't do any of that stuff, like read the blood tests. So that's where truly medical doctors and the dieticians and psychiatrists come into play.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And I think that's a great caution that you said too, that as therapists we do need to have a team. Being part of that, not just you, but there is the medical piece. And even if you like holistic things, it doesn't mean that traditional medicine doesn't have a place.

[REBECCA]

Absolutely. I love that you say that because it does feel, especially in today's society that we're either in one camp or the other and there is a middle ground with this and I like that a lot.

[CHRIS]

Absolutely. So how do you use aromatherapy with clients? Do you have it like in office or how do you use it?

[REBECCA]

I do. I really do. And I send them home with like little rollers and we practice the breathwork in tandem with the oils. And to just ground down into the moment, it's really nice. I like it a lot, but I don't tell them to ingest it internally or anything of that nature, but it's really nice. And I always have it going in my office and it's a fun way to utilize holistic healing.

[CHRIS]

Oh, I agree. Totally. So I guess, thinking of your personal practice, so what holistic strategies or techniques do you use each day?

[REBECCA]

Each day, ell, I personally love things like neutropics and learning about different herbs, because that is a great way to, for me, like I used to be on all kinds of medications and maybe at the time, like when I was 12, that was necessary, but I found that they were giving me a lot of adverse side effects. So I made that switch to neurotropics and like medicinal mushrooms, which sounds funny. And this is not to say for your listeners to stop all your medications and [crosstalk] like again, I just want to offer that disclaimer. I did that with the help of a trained, licensed physician, but today, I mean I'm medication free and it feels so, so good. I have a lot of energy and it's just wonderful. And I find that breathing and moving the body daily is so incredibly important and eating the colors of the rainbow.

So I would say there's not really one thing. One other thing though, too, that I like is, I mean, just nuts and bolts and like cognitive behavioral therapy. I know it might feel boring for some clinicians because it's just psychology 101, but we have to understand how our thoughts impact our emotions and our reality. Learning about the cognitive distortions, that to me was so foundational. People with eating disorders really have a tendency to have black and white rigid thinking or they have the "should" statements, like I should have eaten that kale. The shoulding all over yourself. So good. So clever

[CHRIS]

Absolutely. Yes, I think that has a place too, But I think you're right, especially in the holistic realm, some therapists tend to poo-poo and "Ooh, it's just CBT and who needs that?" But I think that, again, if we look holistically, it's another part. It could be another part of treatment. I can't imagine not using some of, I use it with just about every client as part of my treatment, even I do other things holistically, but I think it has so helpful.

[REBECCA]

I do too. I'm curious to know what are some of the modalities that you like to use with your clients? Obviously CBT ---

[CHRIS]

Yes. That's one I use, but more of the holistic stuff, I use yoga in sessions.

[REBECCA]

Oh good for you.

[CHRIS]

I give yoga for homework because it's more subtle yoga. It's more about calming the nervous system. It's not the physical, get strong abs, those kind of things. But it's more about that gentle movement and breath and the pranayama. We call it yoga too, the breathwork is important. Because what I've found in my experience is that not everybody is helped just by breathwork. Sometimes you do need the movement. So that's why I moved on to get the yoga certification.

[REBECCA]

Oh good for you you're certified. I love that.

[CHRIS]

Yep, 200 hours. Yes it's been wonderful. That's been the greatest gift I can give to clients, I feel.

[REBECCA]

I can see that. Pranayama, I think Prada and Sanskrit literally translates to vital life force, pranayama. It's a technique of breath control and so foundational.

[CHRIS]

Yes. Definitely. I can't imagine treating anxiety without it either.

[REBECCA]

Oh my gosh, I know. Forget about it. Without it, oh my gosh. Oh we have to learn how to connect with the body in a joyful, purposeful way. What activity feels good to you and that you're able to actually enjoy? Life is meant to be enjoyed.

[CHRIS]

Yes, I like that too. That's really, I'm sure that's helpful to use with clients. And seeing breathwork as the bridge between the body and the mind and using that. I use meditation and mindfulness practices, like you said, which includes some grounding too, a lot of grounding, especially with trauma.

[REBECCA]

Oh, big time. I know. I love that, practicing mindfulness, like recognizing that we don't need to attach to every little thought and when an unwanted thought arises, imagine just like letting it go and yes, that's just really what it's all about. It's so helpful.

[CHRIS]

Oh absolutely. And I think that's hard at first for people to grasp that.

[REBECCA]

Yes. That's why it's a practice because sometimes for me, even to this day, it's still hard. But we do this at little increments throughout the day and that's what makes all the difference. It doesn't have to be this grandiose thing, just practicing breathwork one minute, a day and then we build on that.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And that's what I talk about, preventative breathing too, for clients, not just when you're anxious, but to practice regularly so that it's easier for you to get calm when you need to. It's so important.

[REBECCA]

Yes, absolutely. And that's funny, like even just the unsexy things like, oh, are you getting enough sleep? Are you getting enough hydration? Those are things that really move the needle too.

[CHRIS]

Oh yes. Definitely. That's why I think this work is so important.

[REBECCA]

It is so important. We're doing good work Chris.

[CHRIS]

I hope so.

[REBECCA]

Yes. Oh my gosh.

[CHRIS]

And glad to connect. That's what the whole point of this podcast is, to connect with other people and get that information out there for other therapists too, to know that there's other holistic strategies and techniques they can use to really be most effective.

[REBECCA]

Absolutely. Love that.

[CHRIS]

So what's a takeaway you could share today that could help listeners who might be just starting their holistic as therapists?

[REBECCA]

I would say learn how to become the producer of your life's movie instead of just an actor. You actually have a lot more power and autonomy and say in your healing journey than you might believe. So get really curious about this. Read the books, connect with someone who intuitively feels right for you in your journey, and most importantly connect with your natural intuition, your body's natural intuition. So basically what we were, we've been talking about the first, I would say the most foundational thing is to connect with the breath and get centered. That would be the takeaway.

[CHRIS]

That's perfect. So have I missed anything else you want to share?

[REBECCA]

I don't think so. I think we covered a vast array of topics. We went all over the place for sure.

[CHRIS]

We sure did. This is great. So what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

[REBECCA]

So you can go to my Instagram, Rebecca Capps Counseling. Feel free to DM me. You can send me an email at rebecca@mindbodythrive.com. My website is mindbodythrive.com where I have a whole host of different offerings for you, for your meditation. So if you are more into guided meditations, that can be really helpful. And you obviously touched on the intuitive eating quiz and what else? I have a body image handout as well.

[CHRIS]

I've checked out her website and I highly recommend it. I was just telling her before we hit record it's well put together and I think you guys will get a lot out of it.

[REBECCA]

Oh, you're so sweet. Yes, Mackenzie made it. She is such a gem when it comes to creating websites. Yes, seriously.

[CHRIS]

And I'll be putting all that information in the show notes as well so you can look up all of Rebecca's information. Rebecca, it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast.

[REBECCA]

Such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Chris.

[CHRIS]

I think we have so much in common.

[REBECCA]

We do.

[CHRIS]

That's great. And I want to thank you to my listeners for your support in listening today. And have you checked out my free email course? It's called Becoming a Holistic Counselor. In this course, you'll explore different holistic strategies, how to develop your skills as a holistic counselor and how to manifest the holistic practice of your dreams. Go to www.holisticcounselingpodcast.com and sign up today.

And again, this is Chris. McDonald's sending each one of you much light and love. Until next time, take care.

If you're loving the show, will you rate review and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform? We just started this and that helps other people find this show. Also, if you're feeling uncertain about your modalities and you want to build your confidence to be your unique self, why don't you to join my free email course, Becoming a Holistic Counselor over at holisticcounselingpodcast.com. In my Becoming a Holistic Counselor course, you'll get tips for adding integrative care into your practice, what training you need and don't, and the know-how to attract your ideal holistic clients. If this sounds like the direction you are headed, sign up at holisticcounselingpodcast.com.

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