Episode 20 The Inward Facing Journey with Joe Gilbert

Jul 21, 2021

Why do some people embark on spiritual journeys? How is the mind like a puppy when it comes to meditation? What can you do to make yourself “lighter”?

MEET JOE GILBERT

Joe Gilbert is a clinical mental health counselor and meditation teacher. His primary office is at the Cedar Walk Wellness Center in Hillsborough, NC. He lives with his wife in Hillsborough, enjoys hiking and backpacking, listening to the birds, and cuddling with his animal companions.

Find out more at his website.

IN THIS PODCAST:

  • Why would you want to embark on an inward facing journey?
  • Stilling your mind
  • Travel lighter

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO EMBARK ON AN INWARD FACING JOURNEY?

We hear people say “I want to be more present. I want to be in the present moment” and the reality is that you are never out of the present moment, it’s just for a lot of us – a lot of the time – we don’t like it and so we think there’s something wrong, that I need to go out of my soul to find something to fix it. (Joe Gilbert)

Many people live on autopilot, unaware or dissociating from their current reality, and think that they need to achieve something other than themselves in order to find peace, or presence, in their current lived experience.

Going on an inward-facing journey means meeting your own needs so that you can be present in your reality without running away from it. You meet your needs, put your ego to rest and simply be, without worrying continually.

I knew I could not keep living my life the way I was living it … I always had existential questions … a lot of the times I would get the response “just don’t think about it, no big deal” …there was this continual pull from me to question everything … self-inquiry to me is continuing to ask “what’s true here?” And we find out what’s true by stripping away what’s false. (Joe Gilbert)

Surrendering helps you to let go of the structures that you hold onto that remain the perception of what you think your reality is. Surrender, and open yourself up.

STILLING YOUR MIND

Find what works for you, because some people need:

More movement:

People who find stillness in mind and spirit could try a form of yoga, tai chi, or a gentle hike to move the body without becoming over-excited.

To get rid of the script:

Get rid of the idea of what you think meditation and stillness look like because it is different for everyone.

To stop running:

Stop running from something, because yoga works well when you settle into the unknown and say “yes” to what comes up if it resonates with you and your Higher-self.

To trust your intuition:

This may take a little while, but use meditation as a way to get back in touch with your intuition, and you can even use your intuition to get in touch with meditation.

Treat your mind like an excited puppy. It will run off and get distracted and want to play and collide into a million things at once, but you accept it for where it is and you do not yell at it because you understand that it is new to the world, just as your mind is new to meditation.

TRAVEL LIGHTER

We just travel lighter [so] we don’t take ourselves so seriously, and when I’m not taking myself so seriously, I don’t have much to defend, I don’t get so defensive … I don’t get addicted looking for something that is going to somehow save me. (Joe Gilbert)

Through embarking on an inward journey you can travel lighter through life. By completing a spiritual journey and figuring out who you really are, what is really important, and what you really want to focus your energy and attention on, you become lighter.

When you know what is important to you, you can release all the rest that is weighing you down and keeping you stuck in the past and stuck in old habits that no longer serve you.

Connect With Me

Resources Mentioned And Useful Links:

Transcript

[CHRIS McDONALD]

The Holistic Counseling Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Behind the Bite, Full of Shift and Impact Driven Leader, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Welcome to the Holistic Counseling Podcast, where you discover diverse wellness modalities, advice on growing your integrative practice, and grow confidence in being your unique self. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so glad you're here for the journey.

. He discovered Tara Brach in:

[JOE GILBERT]

Hi Chris. It's a pleasure to be here.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So can you tell my listeners a little more about yourself and your work?

[JOE]

see, I became a counselor in:

[CHRIS]

Excellent. And I know you're very much contemplative in nature.

[JOE]

It seems that way. Not by choice. Maybe we'll get into that a little bit.

[CHRIS]

Yes. Well, I feel, as I was looking at your website and I was like, there's a real feeling of calm and just focus and reflection. I don't know if that's, you did some meditation before creating your website, but it just, that's the energy I got off of it.

[JOE]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's constantly changing. I try to keep the website fresh and organic. It seems like anytime I have a good insight, life will slap me in the face the next day and I need to reevaluate everything. So I just try to update it based on the quality of perception I have at any given time.

[CHRIS]

Oh, that makes sense. I really love that. It comes through too, very genuine and real. I could see that for our clients as well.

[JOE]

Thank you.

[CHRIS]

I want to hear more about your training to be a certified mindfulness meditation teacher with Tara Brach. Can you tell us about that?

[JOE]

Sure. Prior to:

[CHRIS]

I love the simplicity, but depth of that too, as my awareness, and then looking at if there is a resistance, can I accept where I am? That's powerful.

[JOE]

on, what they call [inaudible:

[CHRIS]

Oh, that's great. I was looking at your, you offer meditation services separate from individual therapy. So is there a reason you do that?

[JOE]

I just really found that I enjoyed it. There's something very simple about that in the sense that most of the practice takes place outside of my office. So I'll sit with somebody and really we just dive right in and say, "How's your practice? What are you working on?" And people will share with me of what's showing up for them and in a way that takes the course of how this all unfolds. So based on what their experiences, we can say, "Okay, well let's keep going in this direction or let's try something different." And then I really enjoy practicing with people too. So those who are willing to come and sit and be still, just notice mindfulness in front of them and explore a bit. There's a level of intimacy in there that I think is healing in itself.

[CHRIS]

Yes, mind and soul.

[JOE]

It's something that, there's only a handful of people I work with in that manner, but something that I really enjoy and I love to do more of it. And the groups I really enjoyed too and I really missed doing groups last year.

[CHRIS]

You are doing some of the in-person meditation groups?

[JOE]

I was, yes, and it was mostly an introduction to mindfulness meditation groups that I was doing, but I learned so much from the students. And there's just such a built-in quality of support and tenderness for one another that evolves over the course of the eight weeks typically.

[CHRIS]

And I noticed too, that you said donation-based service. Was this part of the training that they said that this was best? Or is this something that comes from you and your calling?

[JOE]

That's what feels right for me. We've spent a lot of time talking about paying attention to our position as a teacher and the traps of money and a lot of power of abusing sexuality, for instance, and also about finding a place where you're comfortable charging for meditation services, which I guess in a lot of traditional ways of looking at that might be considered a no-no. So for me, it's something that, again, spills out. I mean, it's something that is with me 24/7. So it seemed weird for me to charge, something that is so natural and in a way I'm meeting people where I don't have anything to offer them. I'm just trying to point to something that's already within them and helping them to see for themselves in a way it doesn't feel, it's just bizarre for me to charge them for something that they already have

[CHRIS]

For something they already have inside them. That's great. I love it. And on your website, I just want to read what you wrote, you said, "If you find yourself here, perhaps you are ready for what I call the inward facing journey. This typically occurs when we become exhausted with a search for happiness outside ourselves," which kind of goes in with what you just said. Can you share a little bit more about that inward facing journey?

[JOE]

Sure, sure. And I guess that's, I was thinking about why would somebody want to meditate? Why somebody wants to do what I call the inward facing journey. For a lot of people, a lot of your listeners, this may not resonate and that's totally okay. I remember going on a retreat with Tara and her husband, Jonathan Foust, and at the end of the retreat, he said, now a lot of you have had some really significant insights of the course of this week. And there's a lot of excitement and energy that you want to bring back into the world. He says, now be mindful when you go back into the world that most people have not been on a seven day meditation retreat. When you start sharing, pay attention to the moment where their eyes glaze over, and that's where you want to stop talking about it.

So this conversation we're having may resonate with certain people, but for a lot of people, it may not. So for me, the inward journey was not something I chose necessarily, but it was almost out of necessity because I had tried everything else. I was really suffering. I had my own experiences of depression, anxiety, abusing substances. And it's almost like the Christian story of the prodigal son, running away from myself and looking for happiness, goodies, experiences, something to lock down outside of myself, that would, I don't know what I was looking for. Just not this. There was something about this that was not okay. And I think that's a challenge for a lot of people, is we hear people say, "I want to be more present. I want to be in the present moment." And the reality is you're never out of the present moment.

It's just for a lot of us, a lot of the time we don't like it. So we think there's something wrong and I need to go out of my to try to find something to fix it. And that pursuit itself, especially in the spiritual path can be Laden with traps for our ego too. The ego loves to grab it's full for a spiritual cloak and mala beads. So in a way it was hitting a wall. It was a surrender for me. There was a specific moment. One night in November, many years ago where I knew I surrendered and I saw something very clear. I knew I could not keep living my life the way that I was living it. And then it became just a, I always had existential questions even as a kid. I remember asking my parents about death and a lot of times from others, I would get the response, "Just don't think about it. No big deal." And as you know, "just don't think about it doesn't work." So there was this continual pool for me to question everything. And again, that's what the immigration journey is and what meditation is to me. It's self inquiry. It's continuing to ask what's true here in a way of finding out what's true by stripping away with what's false or what's an illusion. Does that make sense?

[CHRIS]

That makes sense. Yes. I'm just thinking about what you're saying. And how has meditation changed your life?

[JOE]

y or Rupert Spire, [inaudible:

These teachers start from the position of awareness, which in a way, the progressive path, like I was aligned with the persona I worked with, with Tara Brach and Jack Cornfield is a gradual progression towards becoming more and more aware. The direct path starts from awareness in a sense. It's assumes, and I would say, it's already the case that you are aware. And then we can take that stance and learn to see the world ourselves and other people in a different way. So it's letting go of the active dealing in meditation and simply being in your natural state, which is meditation really.

[CHRIS]

So how is your natural state meditation?

[JOE]

Hmm, it's quite simple. It's have, you heard of the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 relaxation technique that we use in therapy?

[CHRIS]

Yes. Can you just review that real quick?

[JOE]

Sure. So basically we take a pause, maybe a few deep breaths, and then we say, okay, what are five things that I can see around me? I might just let my attention slowly move around the room and I might name all spider plants. There's a tufted, Titmouse outside my window right now. And name a few more things and then I might say, "Okay, what are four things that I can touch?" And I might just even rub my thumb and my forefinger together and notice the texture and the quality of that sensation, and then grab my jeans. And then three things that I can hear. I can bring my awareness to the white washing machine outside of my room right now. So a lawn mower or something outside of my neighborhood. And then two things that I can smell. And then what do I taste? What's one thing that I taste right now?

And in a way just doing that exercise alone can bring some relief if you do it patiently from two to five minutes. And it just helps you to reorient a little bit. But what I like about it is it reminds you that these things are always and already happening. You don't have to do anything to see. You don't have to do anything to hear or to have your tactile senses or your sense of smell or taste. These things are always already happening naturally. And you're not doing any of that, but we have this part of us, this mental process. We identify with thoughts that claim it. I am doing these things and therefore I am in control of my thoughts and I am in control of my behaviors and we become addicted to this sense of self because I, and we blindly plumb that. And most of us have a sense of insecurity. There's something wrong with this sense of self, I need to go off onto the self-improvement hamster wheel to get somewhere that is different than that.

So the natural state is just going backwards. It's the moment when the prodigal son turns around to come home. You might hear somebody say, "Stop, go back." You really just rest as best as you can. And in a way, when we try to do that, we realize the harder it is for us to rest. Most of us are trained to be distracted. We are just moving at a speed that for me, at least was unsustainable. So I really had no choice, but to learn how to slow down. And fortunately, I have a lot of great teachers along the way to help me do just that.

[CHRIS]

How do you help clients or anyone you work with meditation if they say that they can't still their mind, or it's hard for them to really get into a meditative state? How do you help them?

[JOE]

Sure. I normalized that. I mean, everybody, I think that I've worked with who starts to meditate experiences, profound self-doubt initially, because a lot of people have ideas about meditation being the absence of thoughts. And we have these images from spiritual magazine, so somebody on a mountain top wearing white linen and mala beads with a smile. I think I list on my website a more accurate depiction of that might be somebody at a detox center throwing up into a toilet. Meditation, especially initially is not fun for a lot of people. It's challenging. So I try to normalize that right away. Like it's, you're going to be met with resistance and you're going to notice how insane our mental process is and how agitated our body is, how challenging it is to slow that down. And there are so many different ways to meditate, to practice mindfulness with people.

I really invite people to find what's going to work for them. Some people may need more movement, so yoga or Tai Chi, walking meditation. A lot of times it can be counterintuitive to just force yourself to sit still. If you have a mood disorder, for instance, and you're having hypomanic episodes, forcing yourself to sit still is going to be a lot more challenging. So just working with each individual with their direct experience and going from there, but also trying to replay the idea that you're going anywhere. I think that's why it's so important to say, "Well, what's my intention here? Am I meditating because I want to get away from something?" Because ultimately meditation is learning to say, yes. It's going to say this is it. Can I connect to something? And that doesn't mean that we don't take action. In a sense it reduces our reactivity, our addiction to ourself and allows us to actually be more responsible in ways that only meditation can show you. I can't show you that just by speaking about it.

[CHRIS]

True. Yes, absolutely. And the benefits are just astounding. I know since I, and you helped me a lot to get more into that consistent practice. I meditate almost every day. I can't say every day, because there are some days when I work out and I don't have time, but most days I meditate, but I tell you, it really has changed my brain. So I don't have that reactivity to stress, automatic rash. I think that's a big one.

[JOE]

Yes, and just that that's sacred pause, even a half a second.

[CHRIS]

Secret pause, yes.

[JOE]

Yes. [inaudible:

[CHRIS]

That's what I love with mindfulness meditation, because that's mostly what I teach and what I use myself, just noticing in that present moment and what's going on within you and what's going on in the room. Just for me, it's easier now to connect that I've done it so often. I think that's the thing too, to tell clients that it's a practice. That's why they call it, meditation. practice It takes some time to get used to it.

[JOE]

It's funny. You've heard that metaphor of training the puppy in meditation, when the window --

[CHRIS]

No I haven't.

[JOE]

When you're training yourself to sit still with thoughts, the mind is going to run away like a puppy. You tell the puppy to sit, it's going to run away. You don't whip the puppy or beat it. It's about positive reinforcement. So you just say, "Oh, okay, sweetheart, you ran off again, come on back." And then you're invite it to sit back on your lap and then it runs off again and you gently keep on bringing it back and holding it. So I think there's an important piece. And once we notice we've been lost in thought, that's a magical moment of mindfulness, but that's also where most of us whip ourselves and say, "Oh, I'm doing something wrong. Why did I get lost in thought?" But that's the opportunity really to say, "Oh, suddenly I'm awake again"."

And it's so critical to take that moment to relax your whole nervous system, take a deep breath, stretch a little bit, and gradually come back to whatever your anchor is, just focusing on your breath or sounds and sensations in your hand. And I've been using that metaphor for years. It's interesting because my wife and I just adopted a puppy now too, and I've never had a puppy. We've always adopted older dogs. So I'm having to use all of these teachings. I'm having to use my meditation training to teach myself how to train this puppy. So I'm grateful for that.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And that's what I love with mindfulness meditation. It's without judgment to bring your mind back when it wanders. And I love that you said opportunity. I've not heard of it that way.

[JOE]

Yes. The mental process is just, it's not, the mind is not a thing. Like we've never found something called the mind. It really is just restlessness. So if we can understand that back and hopefully soften the urge t control it, to beat it into submission and just let it do its thing, then over time, it recedes into the background, at least the psychological mind, that part of our mind, that is what I like to call the color commentator. It's constantly chirping out saying, we should do this. We should do that. We must do this. You need to be better, yada. Now I can gradually with meditation, just take a back seat so it stops driving the bus. And I've been using that metaphor a lot too with people, the sports metaphor where we have a play by play commentator for most sports events.

This is the person who's saying so-and-so passed the ball, the team shot, they scored. They're just saying, this is what's happening. And then you have the color commentator who comes in and says, yes, but I really wish he would have passed it over here. And that would have made more sense and adding all this extra speculation as well. And that's the voice that most of us have, but we are addicted to. So meditation can gradually help us see this thing, this experience is not who I am and yet I have been believing it for how many decades, whatever. So it's not like you cut the cord and it just goes away. You see it, it's like you can fire this employee, but they keep showing back to work the next day.

[CHRIS]

Wow.

[JOE]

Thank you for sharing.

[CHRIS]

Thank you for sharing.

[CHRIS]

Is there any other benefits to meditation that you've found yourself personally?

[JOE]

Absolutely. I think I sleep better, that's for sure. Just non-reactive in general, a lot more at peace with myself and therefore with others, blame, judgments, opinions. While these things have fallen away or shifted a real simplicity to life, that's the card to put into words. It's too simple in a way that you can't put it into words. Words are great pointers, but they often miss the mark.

[CHRIS]

That's true.

[JOE]

So my compassion for others has grown exponentially. And it's not the compassion we read about. It's just simple understanding of our interdependence. You know, I see myself in everybody I meet. If we really start to look at what meditation can show us and we're starting, neuroscience is starting to catch up with it. If we really understand that everything is made of the same stuff and there's not two things ---

[CHRIS]

Interconnectedness.

[JOE]

Hmm. It's what they call a divine hypnosis in certain traditions. We get, I like to think of the metaphor of a carpet. I don't have multifaceted kind of colorful carpet, which is, what they call consciousness, Christ, consciousness, Buddha nature, or whatever you want to call it. It is the freshness, the fabric of life. But it expresses itself in this multiplicity of and diversity of colors and contours, which is what makes life really fun. It allows us to go out into relationships and experiences, but we can also get caught in addictive behaviors too, and my strand is better than your strand and oh, this carpet is not as good as that carpet, failing to see the underlying reality of all of it. So meditation can help us to not only understand that, but feel it too.

When we can feel the interconnectedness of all things, how can it not affect the nature of our relationships, and the nature of our relationship to the natural world too? I talk with people who are really sincere practitioners. I tell them this is an invitation to find a happiness that is not dependent on any object, any person or any experience outside of yourself, because fundamentally we know that any of those things are temporary. They're impermanent ---

[CHRIS]

Yes, that inward facing journey.

[JOE]

Yes. So with all the, with everything being like sand in our hands, what remains. So these are more of the contemplatives kind of questions that we ask ourselves before a meditation session.

[CHRIS]

Absolutely. I hear a bird.

[JOE]

l. I have a little [inaudible:

[CHRIS]

Oh nice. And that's very mindful too [crosstalk]. It's okay. We are living in the present moment, Joe. I love all the research too about meditation and how it actually does change the brain. That's just so astounding. I think it's Daniel Siegel, perhaps, he says we use our mind to change the brain to change the mind, really the skillful way of putting everything.

[CHRIS]

Yes. And there's an intersection too with yoga and meditation because I do both and I do yoga every day, but sometimes doing yoga too can set you up for meditation as well.

[JOE]

Absolutely.

[CHRIS]

That's what I love.

[JOE]

Would you be comfortable sharing a bit about that with me, about your experience with all that kind of helped you?

[CHRIS]

Oh, absolutely. So I used to do, since I got used to doing the daily meditation, I would do meditation and then yoga. And then as I did the yoga certification program and learned that no, the asanas are what can help you to make your mind and body ready for meditation? And the way my teacher taught it too, was that we would do asanas and then do a savasana and then meditation, which was new for me because I've never had a yoga teacher do that before. So you're actually in a better state of mind too, after savasana, that you're ready for the meditation. So there are certain postures that really can help and certain variations of yoga. So yes, it's just very interesting how everything is intertwined like that can make you more, I guess, more focused maybe for the meditation piece then.

[JOE]

Absolutely. Well, that's great. That's such a wealth of different tools and traditions and with them teachers out there to see what resonates with us and find and craft our own path.

[CHRIS]

Yes. Because that's one of the limbs of yoga too, is meditation. So the interconnectedness side of that. Also from your website, I wanted to bring up before I forget, so this was something I read too, that you said about several years ago, after facing many years of spiritual seeking, you experienced a letting of who I thought I was. There was a profound shift in perspective. That unfolding process continues to this day. So can you share a little bit of what brought you to that place of that profound shift?

[JOE]

Yes, I'll try.

[CHRIS]

I know you said it was hard to put into words.

[JOE]

Yes. You know, if you really dive into some of the Buddhist teachings and the contemplative teachings, it really is an invitation to let go of everything. And we hear that all the time. We don't like identify letting go with objects with others, with experiences, but letting go of the body too, the mind of who we think we are. And when I can talk about, I identity as a counselor, for instance, but also know that that is tenuous. At any given time, something could happen where we are no longer in the role of counselor. So we understand that doesn't define who we are. So this is taking that further and saying, "Okay, well, am I this body? And if so, what part of this body is me? And the brain is three pounds of floating, like matter in case then a skull and fingernails am I, what am I?" So we really start to peel that away. It's a challenging process and ultimately it leads you to the understanding that what you are is not limited to the mind and the body, but it's basically, it's hard because we perceive things.

something that is [inaudible:

So that was what propelled me into this deeper search, deeper inquiry and the metaphor, I use a lot of metaphors and stories that I like and talking about the shift with others is that imagine that you and I are characters in a movie and we are having our adventures through life in this movie, on this movie screen. And at some point somebody says, pay attention to the screen, pay attention to the screen in which, by which the movie is playing on. So that's the shift I try to talk about. All my life I thought I was this character on this movie going somewhere and suddenly there was the in perspective where I could see what we are is the screen itself, but it also has space. It also is this kind of timeless field, if you will, that holds everything, everyone. And then we can learn gradually to go back and forth. We can be the characters in the movie. We can have our experiences, we can enjoy life, but we can also read that screen that is open, transparent, luminous to the eyes and ---

[CHRIS]

That's so deep Joe.

[JOE]

It is. And at the same time simple now. But that doesn't mean that this character I call Joe doesn't get irritated. I still have ---

[CHRIS]

With life stuff.

[JOE]

Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So unfortunately that still happens, but there's not a sense of some awful person doing it. A much easier, I have a much easier job about forgiving myself and it makes it easier to shift into, "Okay, can I make some amends here, clean up my side of the street? How do I learn from this?"

[CHRIS]

How do I learn from this? That's good.

[JOE]

Yes. I'm not walling so much and reinforcing this idea of not being good enough or there's something wrong with me.

[CHRIS]

Oh, that's great. And I know we talk about spirituality with clients as well, and there's always that fine line with mental health therapists, like how much can I say without pushing my own values and spiritual beliefs onto them. So how do you use spirituality with clients and sessions to make sure you're not crossing over that ethical line?

[JOE]

Sure. Well, I have, on my intake form, there's a question about spirituality if people want to share that. And then I might broach it in the intake to see if it's something that is support for them, if they have a personal history with it that they'd like to share or make part of the counseling process. Ultimately, I don't really even talk about it unless it's brought up in a session. I rarely even use the word spirituality in my sessions with people.

[CHRIS]

So you just leave it up to them?

[JOE]

Hmm. I mean, ultimately from where I am, everything is spiritual in a sense, and I don't have any kind of spiritual or religious beliefs anymore these days. So in a way that makes it easy to not project beliefs onto others,

[CHRIS]

That's true. And just being open to what they bring to the table.

[JOE]

ne that they're an [inaudible:

[CHRIS]

Now you gave a lot to think about today. Definitely deeper thoughts today, on a Monday. So Joe, what's a takeaway you could share today that could help listeners who may be just starting their holistic journey.

[JOE]

Hmm. This is a hard one. And it's one that a teacher, she shared with me several years ago and it took me a while to really understand what she was pointing to. So I'm not going to try to explain it to your listeners, but do your best and know that you can't mess up. Spend time five minutes a day, just trying to be in your natural state and it's going to be different and more challenging for us, depending on our makeup, the extent of our personal trauma and substance abuse and things like that. So to try to be gentle, don't compare yourself to anybody. Do your best and know that whatever shows up is your path. If it's just a storm, a torrent of awful thoughts and challenging feelings, that's the path. That's what's showing up for you.

[CHRIS]

That's the path.

[JOE]

Yes. So it's not getting rid of things. It's trying to say, "Okay, here you go. Here we are. What do I do with this? How do I ----

[CHRIS]

Kind of sounds like some of that self-acceptance and acceptance of what is.

[JOE]

Absolutely.

[CHRIS]

Yes. So what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

[JOE]

Probably my website. gilbertmeditation.com.

[CHRIS]

Okay, great. So we'll put that in the show notes and there'll be on the website so listeners can find you on there.

[JOE]

Thanks.

[CHRIS]

But thanks for coming on today, Joe.

[JOE]

Oh, it's been a delight and it's just great to connect with you again and thank you so much for doing this.

[CHRIS]

For sure. I know we got to keep it better in touch.

[JOE]

Well, we'll do our best, like get a cup of coffee or something.

[CHRIS]

Absolutely. And I want to thank my listeners for tuning in today as well. And I need your help if you could please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Until next time, take care.

If you're loving the show, will you rate review and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform? We just started this and that helps other people find this show. Also, if you're feeling uncertain about your modalities and you want to build your confidence to be your unique self, why don't you to join my free email course, Becoming a Holistic Counselor over holisticcounselingpodcast.com. In my Becoming a Holistic Counselor course, you'll get tips for adding integrative care into your practice, what training you need and don't, and the know-how to attract your ideal holistic clients. If this sounds like the direction you are headed, sign up at holisticcounselingpodcast.com.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.

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