217 Yoga for Anxiety | Simple Tools Therapists Can Use to Help Clients Find Calm: Interview With Joanna Barrett

Chris McDonald: Feeling overwhelmed by anxiety is something that many of us and our clients experience. But what if there is a simple, effective way to help clients find calm in the chaos? In this engaging episode, we're uncovering how yoga inspired practices can become powerful tools in your therapeutic toolkit, from grounding mudras to soothing breathwork.

My guest Joanna Barrett shares accessible and easy to integrate techniques that you can easily incorporate into your sessions to help clients ease their minds and reconnect with their bodies. Don't miss this empowering episode. Tune in to discover how yoga can transform the way you support your clients with anxiety on this episode of Yoga in the Therapy Room Podcast.

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Welcome to Yoga in the Therapy Room, the nontraditional therapist's guide to integrating yoga into your therapy practice. I'm Chris McDonald, licensed therapist and registered yoga teacher. This podcast is here to empower therapists like you with the knowledge and confidence to bring yoga into their practice safely and ethically.

So whether you're here to expand your skills, enhance your self care, or both, you're in the right place. Join me on this journey. to help you be one step closer to bringing yoga into your therapy room.

This is the Yoga in the Therapy Room podcast, the non traditional therapist's guide to integrating yoga into your therapy practice safely and ethically. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. I'm so excited to be here to guide you on this journey of integrating yoga inspired practices into your therapeutic work.

Today we're diving in a topic that affects so many of our clients, and let's get real, many therapists as well, and the topic of anxiety and how we can integrate yoga with it to better help clients regulate their nervous systems. This world can often feel overwhelming, so how can we empower clients to reconnect with their inner calm?

The answer might be simpler than you think. Here to guide us is licensed therapist and emotional wellness yoga instructor Joanna Barrett. She offers traditional therapy and trauma informed yoga, creating a safe judgment free environment for clients to openly explore their inner thoughts, emotions, and experiences.

She is here to talk about how yoga can help clients with anxiety, how to assist clients who may be hesitant to try yoga practices, as well as practical accessible ways to find ease in both the body and the mind. So settle in. Let's explore how yoga can be a powerful ally in your work with anxious clients.

Let's get started. Hi, Joanna. Welcome to the Yoga in the Therapy Room podcast. Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's great to have you. So I wondered, how did you first discover yoga?

I went to one class and I stood on my mat in mountain pose. And I felt alive. And that was the first time in a while that I could feel my heart, I could feel myself breathing. And from that point on, I was hooked.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. So did you start just going to classes

Joanna Barrett: regularly? I did. We had a great local studio where I lived in New Jersey at the time.

And I started with just one class a week. And it was a yoga for stress reduction class. And it mixed just gentle. Practices with some restorative. And then I started doing yoga to DVDs and to remember Rodney. Yes, exactly. Yes. And some of the great teachers that paved the way for me to start a home practice as well.

And it just took off from there.

Chris McDonald: So it sounds like anxiety was one area that helped you individually. And we're here to talk about helping clients with anxiety. So why is yoga a good choice for therapists if they have clients with anxiety?

Joanna Barrett: Well, yoga is an asset, a tool that can be used in the therapy room.

It doesn't even have to be on a yoga mat. What's so great about utilizing yoga in the therapy space is that really just about. Anyone can do it and

Chris McDonald: yes, I appreciate you saying

Joanna Barrett: yes, and it can be so effective for mood regulation and part of that is because of the breathing. We do part of that's the movement, the poses.

It might be some of the mudras, the chanting, whatever it is so much of it. can help the nervous system. And with nervous system regulation, we can decrease anxiety.

Chris McDonald: So have you had experience with clients being able to really manage their anxiety better with yoga?

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely. Yes. And what I've seen with clients is that we might practice something in session and they feel some relief.

But it's hard for them to practice it on their own, so we may do it in sessions weekly. And part of their homework that I would give is to practice when they can on their own. And they have found, especially through breathing and through some movement and different mindfulness techniques that they're less anxious.

They're less worried. They're more. aware and able to shift when, when it's needed for them.

Chris McDonald: What have you found to be the most effective practices with yoga, with clients, with anxiety?

Joanna Barrett: Some of the best practices are the simplest ones, right? It doesn't, Yes, it doesn't need to be complicated, and for therapists who utilize yoga in session with clients, it's what we as therapists are able to utilize for ourselves as well.

So it might be several deep breaths. Right, but really taking belly breaths or elongating the exhale things that will soothe the nervous system and Allow us to shift from sympathetic to parasympathetic and so something like breathing or a body scan Something like some simple Movement seated in a chair or on a couch.

You don't need a yoga mat for this, but it could be really effective for anxiety.

Chris McDonald: I'm glad you said that because a lot of times therapists here that don't have a lot of yoga experience that we have to get on a mat and lay down and have to, have to get on there. But guess what? These practices you can do seated.

That's what I think is beautiful.

Joanna Barrett: Yes, I agree. And it, Actually makes it more accessible for people mentally, emotionally, and physically. And I think it, it is important that therapists know at least some of the basics of yoga and yoga philosophy and why we do what we're doing, but to integrate it into therapy sessions, it doesn't need, you know, a thousand hours of training necessarily.

To do, you know, the little snacks, the little bites, yoga snacks.

Chris McDonald: I've been doing those once a month, those practices. Cause I think it is just, can we get more of those bite size pieces, right? And take it slow.

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely. And I love those little bites and someone doesn't need to carve out necessarily 60 minutes for a full practice or go to a studio class.

Right. They can practice with whatever timeframe they have available.

Chris McDonald: So using what you do have, and I think giving that message to clients too, because there is that messaging, I think in society that we have to do a full hour class to get the benefits or a 90 minute class. I don't got time for a 90 minute class.

I don't know about you, but

Joanna Barrett: I used

Chris McDonald: to, I know I love that, but man, that's hard.

Joanna Barrett: Right. And now my practice is very different.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. So tell me what you do for your yoga practice now.

Joanna Barrett: For my personal practice, it varies, honestly, and it shifts seasonally. I'll say that depending on the weather and the seasons.

It also shifts on a weekly, monthly basis with my hormonal cycle. Right. As a woman as well. So sometimes my yoga practice is more active. And I might be doing a vinyasa flow, I might be doing more pranayama that is a little more active. Other times, I grab a bolster and lay it down on the carpet and lay on the floor and do some restorative.

And Other times it is, you know, 10 minutes. Sometimes if I actually have an hour or I have a client cancellation, I can do a 45 minute yoga nidra meditation, but it all depends. It all varies. For me

Chris McDonald: sounds like a ebb and flow depending on where you are in your life and what's going on.

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely, and I think we need to honor where we are and where, you know, what season we're in, where we are in our life, and you know, if we're in our twenties versus our eighties, right?

Different practices might be more beneficial for us during different times of our lives.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, and I think just watching what we say to ourselves, too, if we really want to bring yoga in, but we're not doing it to not beat ourselves up, to use the self compassion and be able to adjust and adapt. That sounds like what you're saying is that flexible approach, maybe.

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely. And I also think a lot of yoga is off the mat. It's how we live our lives. And so it doesn't need to be. A rigid practice on the mat. I think that an asana practice, uh, you know, a flow practice for me serves me really well to release tension in my body and to drop into my body, especially during times where I might be more anxious or stressed in my life yet.

It's how I live my life off the mat. That is yoga to me.

Chris McDonald: That's beautiful.

Joanna Barrett: Thank you. I've, I've, I've spent, uh, 15 years figuring that out.

Chris McDonald: Yes, exactly. So I know you talked a little bit about breathwork. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how that can help with, um, emotional regulation and nervous system regulation?

Joanna Barrett: Sure. So we know for anyone who has ever experienced anxiety or works with clients with anxiety, we know that. The breath is short and shallow. We are in a sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight response. And we're living basically from like the neck up. We're very heavy. And what can be really beneficial is to drop us into our breath, drop us into our body.

And so an elongated exhale, an exhale breath that is longer than the inhale breath can Shift us from sympathetic nervous system to parasympathetic nervous system. We want that rest and digest and for someone who is feeling very anxious, it might take a while to be able to shift the breath from the chest.

into the abdomen or actually get a longer exhale than an inhale because I feel like with anxiety we inhale and inhale and inhale and almost never fully exhale. So one of my favorite breathwork practices, one of my favorite pranayamas is an extended exhale where We're able to reduce some of the anxiety in the body by taking in the oxygen and releasing everything with a longer exhale.

And so, you know, if whoever's listening wants to try it, we can do an experiential practice.

Chris McDonald: Yes, let's try it.

Joanna Barrett: Okay, so I can explain what we'll do and then we'll do it. I think it's helpful to know what's coming. So we're going to breathe in for a count of four. If that is too long for you, you can do a count of three and then we're going to pause.

at the top of the inhale and exhale for a longer count. So maybe five or six beats come, you know, on the exhale breath out, but it's very individualized. These practices for each person may vary. So, um, I'll cue it with the inhale breath for four and the exhale breath for six. But if that's too long for someone, you can adjust for whatever the inhale and the exhales are that worked for you.

Okay. Ready, Chris and ready nurse. Okay. So find a comfortable seat and ideally a straight spine. You can still lean back into your chair. For some support, we're going to breathe in for a count of 1, 2, 3, 4, pause. Breathe out for 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, pause. Again, breathe in for 1, 2, 3, 4, pause. Breathe out for six, five, four, three, two, one, pause.

And you can repeat that on your own. And if my timing of it didn't work for you, customize it for what works with your breath. And sometimes I may start with a client, breathe in for a count of three, exhale for four, right? And eventually sometimes the exhale breath becomes double. Of what the inhale is, so if you inhale for 4, you might be able to exhale for a really slow it down.

And what I love about this is the shift that I feel that clients feel from an anxious. tense, tight state to more relaxed, more calm. And sometimes I even do this to help me fall asleep at night. So it's great to kind of fall asleep to as well.

Chris McDonald: But I love your very trauma informed approach as well. I appreciate that.

And being able to recognize that we got to customize, cause I don't know if you've heard a lot in society, we've heard of that four, seven, eight. breath and I don't teach that and I don't know how you feel about that either. Can you share about that?

Joanna Barrett: I, for me personally, I have never felt comfortable with that count of breath.

For some people it works really well, for others it doesn't. And so, you know, take what you need, take what resonates. That's kind of my message because Not everything is going to work for everybody. And from my training in not only trauma therapy, but also trauma informed yoga, it's about choice. It's about invitational language.

It's about having a choice that whoever I'm teaching to, they are in control of their yoga practice. They can choose differently. And I'm just a guide, you know, I want my clients to feel empowered to do what works best for them.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think if we give that prescriptive approach that this is the goal, then that could lead to almost harm too.

If clients are like, I can't do this, I'm a failure kind of leading to that negative line of thinking too, when it's, that's not the goal is to, we have to do it a certain way that we can work with what feels right in your body.

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely. And just like in a yoga class where maybe someone goes to a studio class and there's a trauma informed instructor, they'll give options, they'll give modifications, they'll give variations.

So if you look around the class of like 15 people, you will see a lot of different approaches. And. If there's not, then someone may walk out of a class saying, I'm never doing yoga again, or if we're not trauma informed and don't use that approach in our therapy sessions, a client may say, I'm never going back, or I never want to do this, or this doesn't work when in reality, it just wasn't the best fit for them, right?

And, and our approach can really be tailored to the needs of. Our clients.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, exactly. So can you talk about asana practice in therapy and is there some favorite practices that you have some movement practices?

Joanna Barrett: Yes. So I, I love movement and I'm someone who tries to stretch and move and be aware of my body.

Throughout the day and probably because I joke, I sit for a living, right? And as therapists, we sit for a living unless you're someone that does like walk and talk or, um, somatic experiencing, even you might move a little bit more. I think moving the tension out of the body, especially for people with anxiety, that moving that tension through breath and movement.

Can be really beneficial. And so in my approach, I think about the intention of the Asana, the posture, the pose. I think of what is the intention of the shape of this, the pacing, and is it more effort or ease? So for shape, backbending heart opening poses, generally speaking, are more energizing. They're more uplifting.

Right? They may increase more sympathetic nervous system. So for someone who is experiencing some depression, some heart opening may be helpful for them. Forward folding poses, generally speaking, and I say that with like a little asterisk, right? May help us bring more of an inward focus. More ease than effort, both like physically and with our muscles, and we may increase the parasympathetic nervous system.

So we may be able to relax and calm ourselves more with these types of shapes. However, I also feel there's a balance that's needed between them, and that's the harmony that we can create in our bodies and for pacing. Is a movement more fast paced or is it slower and what is most beneficial for each individual person will vary and then are we efforting, are we doing more standing poses, muscular holds kind of taking some energy from the body, which has benefits or is it more easeful?

Are we lying down? Are we seated? It isn't more. gentle or soft? Is it replenishing? Um, so some of my favorite asanas for the harmony of, of all of this is a seated cat cow. I think that that could be really beneficial for balancing the nervous system to improve our breathing quality. It's also good for digestion.

It can help with a little bit of back tension. It can enhance our lung capacity. It can reduce Some anxiety or depression because it's more balancing and harmonizing. Any other ones you like? Well, then if we're talking specifically for anxiety, some forward fold and they could be seated. You don't have to be on the floor and you don't have to be standing.

It doesn't have to be a standing forward fold or something seated. You could do it right from the therapy couch or chair. And I think that as long as there aren't any contraindications for the clients, that forward folds can be very beneficial for just quieting, calming the contraindications. May be, um, high blood pressure or if someone has a headache or if someone has back pain or spine injuries, asthma, sciatica, some stomach problems.

Then again, this could be helpful for some people who have anxiety that need to experience that kind of inversion, that forward fold. Do you want to try some? Yes, let's do some. Okay, so I encourage you to sit a little bit forward in your seat so that just you, not that you're tipping off the edge, but that you're comfortable and feel your feet flat on the floor.

So, if your legs are crossed, don't cross them. Feet on the floor, probably about hip's width distance or wider. And then you place your hands on your knees. As you inhale, feel like you're sitting up nice and tall. And as you exhale, draw your belly button towards your spine just a little. And then inhale again, long straight spine.

And as you exhale, forward folds, Bending your elbows, leading with your chest, hinging at the hips. You can either keep your head in line with your shoulders, but if it's okay for your spine, meaning no spinal injuries, you can round the spine and drop the head, taking a few breaths here. And you might try that long pause.

breath where we elongate the exhale. And so you can take several rounds of deep breathing here. And if you wanted to shift through your hips or press one foot and then the other into the floor or stretch out between the shoulder blades by rounding the upper back. You know, a little bit of exploratory movement can feel good.

And then whenever you're ready, you just come on up. Some people might feel a little lightheaded or dizzy. So I always say, remember you're seated, you're grounded, feel the support, and just notice the effects.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, it's just, and it's almost like, like you said, just, it brings you more inward too. And I always tend to do it with my eyes closed.

Joanna Barrett: Yeah. And eyes can, eyes can be closed or they could be, you know, if we incorporate Drishti, the focal point that we talk about in yoga, then our gaze can be kind of inward towards our belly button or to the floor. Or just a really soft gaze or eyes closed.

Chris McDonald: Yeah, and I do have contraindications, but I, I follow my body and what it can do in the moment.

So with back issues, and one thing that I've learned through all my physical therapy this year and all the issues I've been having too, is sometimes, you know, Even if it says contraindication, we can still listen to our body and back off, right. I can do a little bit. I'm not going to go all the way down and put my head between my knees or something, but, you know, can I do a little bit?

And then if it bothers me, I'm going to come out. So just really taking your time. And I think that's something to think about with clients as well, that we got to put some ease in there and then see, have them really pay attention to their body, making those cues for that as well.

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely. And thank you for sharing also just personally about contraindications and listening to your body.

And also as a provider, noticing is my client able to have deep breaths? And if not, that's a body cue. That's a signal that. Perhaps the shape of the pose is not the best for them, or they've gone in too far, too deep, too quickly, and to back out. So, so in my practice, I really follow the breath.

Chris McDonald: I think that's a good reminder to really be noticing for you to pay attention to what they're doing.

and have your eyes on them. And I always teach this in my yoga basics too. When we're doing yoga with clients, it feels great. So we want to close our eyes, but I recommend if you're teaching someone to keep your eyes open so that you're watching body cues like the breath or how their body's moving in case that you notice their shoulders tensing up or other things that may be like, okay, they need to make a shift.

Joanna Barrett: Yeah, absolutely. And with some of our clients, they may not have, let's say really deep body awareness. Yes, and so they may not realize that their shoulders are hunched up or that they're starting to breathe more quickly. Right. And so if it's something I'm able to observe, I can, I can back them out gently.

Right. And then ask what. What were you aware of? And also share what I witnessed and how we might try something different, how maybe a twist would be better, right? Or a cat cow would be better suited for them than the forward fold.

Chris McDonald: I love how you give some variations as other options too. I think that's important.

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Go to HC podcast.org/build confidence. That's HC podcast.org/build confidence. Can you talk about clients who may be afraid or not sure about yoga if they don't have any experience with it?

Joanna Barrett: I think there's a lot of misconceptions about yoga, and I try my best to offer something to clients that incorporates life on and off the mat, right?

And it doesn't have to be, like we said, this full prescriptive practice. It could be just, Some breathing tools, you know, Hey, I can offer you some breathing techniques that might be helpful. And inside, I know it comes from the yoga traditions. A client may not necessarily need to know all the details or all the history, as long as we're still honoring the roots of yoga.

I believe we can still offer something to clients and maybe they'll find some benefit from it, or We can offer them something, just a mindfulness technique. It could be a mudra, right? I know you have an episode about mudras, hand gestures. It could be something that is beneficial for them from the yoga traditions.

And yet we call it mindfulness. Or we call it like yoga light here in the West. Ooh, I like that. And maybe that's the entry point for someone. That's the entry

Chris McDonald: point.

Joanna Barrett: Right? They go, Oh, this is effective for me. I'm, what else can I try? Right. And it's like, well, try this yoga snack and this yoga snack, yoga light, yoga light.

But then they perhaps become more engaged in a yoga practice as a way of living. I

Chris McDonald: appreciate that. So I wondered, what would you say to therapists who may be hesitant to bring yoga into their therapy room? Because I know a lot of other therapists I talk to, they're hesitant and they're used to just traditional psychotherapy practices.

What would you say to them?

Joanna Barrett: I would say get some training, right? It's as if you were interested in a new therapeutic modality, you're not going to necessarily offer it without any training. So I definitely think Chris, your course is a great Entry point, um, there are other resources available as well. And so I think it's important that we do our due diligence and we have some training.

I have done over a thousand plus hours of different yoga trainings. So I'm a yoga teacher and a therapist. And integrate the two when clients are interested in that. But to know it's not a one size fits all, right? It's not a prescriptive method where any or all of what we offer will benefit clients. And that's not to scare someone.

That is just to say we need to have variety. We need to know what variations are out there and how to offer this safely and effectively. And so I also encourage mental health professionals to practice yoga before guiding clients, right? Do these practices yourself, see what the effects are for you, knowing that it might be similar or different for someone else.

But at least you can start to embody them for yourself and also practice with someone who's not a client first. So practice with a friend, a family member, a colleague, or, you know, ask your supervisor if you could lead them through. A couple of practices that you want to offer with clients and then gather feedback.

I think that information is really important data for us and it can also really help us boost confidence, right? Someone may say, I really liked your pacing and they may say, that twist was a little too deep. It didn't feel good in my body. Okay. Now, you know, when you cue a twist, make it more gentle. Right?

You're not cranking yourself into it. And for someone, they may really like your pacing for someone else. It's too slow. It's too fast. So it's good to have this basic educational background and experiential practice.

Chris McDonald: You're speaking my language.

Joanna Barrett: Thank you. That's why we get along so well. We have

Chris McDonald: such a, so many things in alignment and I love that, but you don't need a thousand hours.

Just want to emphasize that.

Joanna Barrett: Thank you. Correct. I did that because I found that after. I became a yoga instructor. I learned there was so much that I didn't know that I was curious about and really wanted to deepen my own personal practice and what I offered to my yoga students.

Chris McDonald: Yes. Can you share the mudra that listeners may like to end our time together today?

Joanna Barrett: Absolutely. So if again, we're talking about some anxiety relief. I think one of the best mudras, hand gestures for anxiety relief is having your palms down, downward on your legs, because what this does is it grounds your energy. Your focus is down into the earth, into, you know, your body, your chair, the floor, the earth.

And with palms down on your legs, you're making a connection to your body. And if you incorporate some deep breathing, right, don't forget the pranayama practice that we had earlier, you might be able to not only bring the anxiety level down, but be aware of sensations in your hands or your legs. You may be able to release tension from your arms, your shoulders.

And for some people, they may like to connect their thumb and first finger on each hand so that they make kind of like an energetic loop and the rest of the three fingers are down. So this just, we're used to having palms up on our knees when we do this. When we flip the palms down, that energy goes down instead of uplifting.

So that's just a nice variation and a little imagery could be useful to you can imagine as you breathe that the energy is circling around your hand, your thumb and first finger connected in a circle, right? The energy doesn't leave. It just replenishes itself through you. So, and it could be a nice opportunity for therapists to guide their clients through a mudra and maybe a downward drishti gaze, right?

Plus the pranayama.

Chris McDonald: So we can integrate all those together with the pranayama imagery and mudra.

Joanna Barrett: Yes.

Chris McDonald: I love the simplicity of that. Yes.

Joanna Barrett: Yeah. And all You're welcome. All the therapists really need in their toolbox is a few go to's, right, that they are comfortable offering to clients for what they see most in their practice.

I work a lot with people who have anxiety or who are going through stressful life transitions and so they feel out of control or life feels chaotic. And so just a couple. Simple grounding techniques from yoga can be really beneficial.

Chris McDonald: Yeah. So what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?

Joanna Barrett: Well, my website would be the first place, which is just my name, Joannabarrett. com. And then also I have professional social media pages on Instagram and Facebook. Joanna Barrett therapy, and I have a newsletter as well. If you want to receive a free toolkit for stress relief that you can use anytime, anywhere, you can sign up on my website to get a little freebie.

And then you're on my newsletter. You can unsubscribe at any time, of course, and just keep in touch, um, with me in whatever ways. People want to communicate and

Chris McDonald: her links will also be in the show notes. But thank you so much, Joanna, for coming on the podcast today.

Joanna Barrett: Oh, thank you, Chris. I really appreciate it.

I'm so happy to share this with your listeners and also happy to answer any further questions anyone has. And I'm really grateful that yoga in therapy and in the therapy room is, is out in the world.

Chris McDonald: And listeners from my therapy room to yours, thank you for joining me today. Are you ready to bring the transformative power of yoga into your therapy sessions with confidence and ease?

I've got a free resource for you. Introducing Building Confidence and Competence in Integrating Yoga into Therapy Sessions. A thoughtfully designed checklist to help you navigate best practices. And feel empowered as you blend yoga and therapy. This free guide is packed with tools to help you stay ethical and fully present with your clients.

You can take the first step towards transforming your therapy practice. By signing up, you'll also get access to more tips and insights delivered straight to your inbox to support your journey. Don't wait, start integrating yoga into therapy with confidence today. Go to hcpodcast. org forward slash build confidence.

That's hcpodcasts. org forward slash build confidence. And once again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love till next time. Take care. Thanks for listening to today's episode. The information in this podcast is for general informational and educational purposes only. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are giving legal, medical, psychological, or any other kind of professional advice.

We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or injury. Is liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. Yoga is not recommended for everyone and is not safe under certain medical conditions. Always check with your doctor to see if it's safe for you. If you need a professional, please find the right one for you.

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